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Posted Apr 13, 21 15:29 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Dave Churchman

Dave was a good friend. He died about six years ago. He had an entire warehouse of press equipment, probably the world's largest source for hobby printers. The remnant is still for sale here.

Dave donated to APS a small Kelsey platen press, with lots of type and cuts. He taught the staff to operate it, and he taught the APS seminar class on printing. 

Dave typeset and proofed for me central designs of the Hawaiian Missionary stamps, which I reproduced in the booklet about the Grinnell Missionaries that I wrote for Mystic Stamp Company.

The Smithsonian's lead cut does not resemble anything  I ever saw in Dave's stock. His cuts were commercial castings and zinc electrotypes, not carved lead.

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Posted Apr 13, 21 14:42 by Leonard Hartmann (hartmann)

Dave Churchaman

Dave was an old friend and will be missed by many

His basement was as described by Russ, on my CSA die we tried to print it but the results were poor and i ended up having the BEG do it.

Dave love philately and printing and produced quite a number of "philatelic jokes" that he printed a few and gave to friends, one got out and was sold for some read money in a revenue auction, ie Seal Hunting Tax Stamp, when this was discovered he bought them all back., unfortunately i do not have one.

Some year back he published a good general philatelic book, his price was something like $7.50 but only $6.00 if he authographed it!

The family, i think still has the prinitng business, as to "head Press man" press,  i can only say but he was certainly deserving and capable of that title.

I have been keeping his letters and am not sure what needs to be done,  i do not know of all of his joke stamps but they were well done and not really distributed.

I disagree with Russ that the item does not resemble any of his type, he was truly
commercial in quality

Posted Apr 13, 21 14:03 by Russ Ryle (hoosierboy)

re: lead devices

Richard and Ken and all,

A good friend and fellow IPHS member David Churchman retired as the head pressman for a large Indianapolis newspaper. His passion was old hand or foot pedal powered printing presses. His basement contained several presses and wall to wall type cabinents one of which was nothing but non alphebitic type. Unfortunately David has closed his albums. This device closely resembles the size and structure of some of his odd pieces. Unless someone can find a cover where it is clear this device was used in the postal service I suspect it is not postal.

Posted Apr 13, 21 10:36 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Lead Device

Looks to me more like it is possibly printer's type (?) - I have my doubts that it was ever part of a cancel device.

Posted Apr 13, 21 10:05 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Lead device

Richard,

I had the same thought when I first saw it. The Smithsonian narrative suggests it was typical, but I doubt that.

Posted Apr 13, 21 9:50 by Terence Hines (thines)

So big!

The auctgion catalog illustration didn't include any scale to show its size. I had no idea it would be so big!

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Posted Apr 13, 21 9:23 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Lead Cancel Device

I have not seen anything like this artifact before. Anybody?

Posted Apr 12, 21 20:20 by Russell Crow (cornwall2)

Neat address

I have meant to post this 1797 cover for a long time and I know there other similar stampless covers out there but I still get a kick out of the address. I was searching for another cover when I came across this one again. Jedidiah Morse was a Congregationalist minister and more importantly a map maker or printer. Check out Wikipedia for more details. The address is neat in that it is just "Jedidiah Morse Massachusetts". Yes he was well known at the time and I am sure this FC (sadly no contents) found its way to him. I have seen others that are similar but normally the delivery area/scope is much smaller.

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Posted Apr 12, 21 18:58 by Sören Andersson (sorena)

Marks on cover to Luxembourg/ Switzerland

The marks are censor marks. The circular ones reads ”Überwachungsstelle des VIII. Armeekorps. Trier. Freigegeben” which means something like ”Controle office of the 8th Army Corps. Trier. Released”. Trier was the office of exhange in Germany for most of the incoming mail from Luxembourg. The back reads ”Militäricherseits unter Kriegesrecht geöffnet” equal ”By the military under martial laws opened” Trier 4/2 17. The last word is the title of the censor officer, I can only read it starts with Ueber which means Over

Posted Apr 12, 21 18:24 by Richard Matta (rkmatta)

Columbians

I don't collect either as such, but I do have an accumulation of several hundred "dollar value" US stamps on cover.

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Posted Apr 12, 21 16:26 by Jeremy Crouse (crouse27)

Modern Columbian Reissues (1992)

Updated another interesting use to the census. This is my passion collecting area if anyone can help me please message.

I know it’s not old but original Columbians on cover never looked as nice and are beyond my reach.

Thanks!

Jeremy

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Posted Apr 12, 21 16:25 by Jeremy Crouse (crouse27)

Modern Columbians Reissues (1992)

Updated an interesting use to the census. This is my passion collecting area if anyone can help me please message.

I know it’s not old but original Columbians on cover never looked as nice and are beyond my reach.

Thanks!

Jeremy

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Posted Apr 12, 21 13:36 by Gregory Shoults (coilcollector)

Back of Cover

Here is the back.

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Posted Apr 12, 21 12:38 by Gregory Shoults (coilcollector)

Markings

Need help translating the markings on this cover. I believe it is also an overpayment of the UPU rate.

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Posted Apr 12, 21 12:33 by Matthew Liebson (liebson)

Roger Rhoads

In addition to being a Garfield-Perry stalwart and an occasional visitor to this board, Roger was a lover of 1st issue postal cards, particularly with "Chicago blue" cancels, and of Lake County, Ohio postal history.  Others may also know him as the chair of the APS' Preservation and Care of Philatelic Materials committee.

I will miss him.

Posted Apr 12, 21 9:39 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Roger Rhoads

Sorry to hear that we have lost a great philatelic ambassador in Roger.

I think I first met him 25 years ago at a Garfield Perry show ....

Posted Apr 12, 21 9:36 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Researching an 1808 Letter

Ravi - It should be easy for you to find the ship as not an outrageous number of ships departing London for New York in September1808.

Just buy a subscription to Genealogybank.com and do a newspaper search, narrowed by date, for "arrivals from London" or "latest from London" or "London dates to September 23" etc till you find a ship that arrived in New York City (the "6" is a New York City ship rate for port of entry delivery) that fits the elapsed time. Or, if it has a docket on it, use that as an end date for your search.

Posted Apr 12, 21 7:54 by Gregory Shoults (coilcollector)

Roger Rhoads

Long time Garfield Perry club member Roger Rhoads passed away yesterday in hospice care. RIP Roger

Posted Apr 12, 21 7:45 by Ravi Vora (nusivar)

1808 London to New York- Which Ship did it travel?

Here is an 1808 FL from London merchant Todhunter and Ralph to Thomas Pearsall & Sons in New York. Sender notation on lower left corner: First Ship to New York or Philadelphia via Liverpool with Liverpool being crossed out. According to the previous owner this letter was sent by first available private ship . I need help in determining which ship it was sent and whether it was to New York or Philadelphia? Also the manuscript 6: Does it refer to US postage collected from the recipient? Thanks.

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Posted Apr 11, 21 18:08 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Post a link

I use Internet Explorer.

Posted Apr 11, 21 17:42 by Rob Faux (robfaux)

Postal History Sunday

This week's Postal History Sunday is live.

A nod of gratitude to Richard Frajola for his Paying the Postage exhibit.

Best,
Rob

Posted Apr 11, 21 13:48 by Paul Dessau (paulorgantech)

N.O. to Paris

Thanks for all of your help everyone!

Posted Apr 11, 21 12:41 by Winston Williams (winstonw)

Post a link

Lawrence,

Thank you for the answer - the only browser we know that has the support which allows you to post a web link is Firefox.

Posted Apr 11, 21 12:29 by steven frumkin (sfrumkin)

PD's Transatlantic Cover

Based on normal French post office procedures at that time, shouldn't the indistinct backstamp be Bordeaux?

Posted Apr 11, 21 12:17 by John Barwis (jbarwis)

N.O. to Paris

Good catch, Richard.

John

Posted Apr 11, 21 11:44 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Paul NO

The cover was off-loaded at Southampton and entered France at Calais and then by rail via Paris to Bordeaux. The faint marking in back is French transit or an arrival.

Posted Apr 11, 21 11:41 by Paul Dessau (paulorgantech)

NO to Paris

Thanks- that was one of my possibilities. The faint back stamp is Prussian(?) would the double rate be due to the routing all the way to Prussia then back to Southern France? It is a light folded letter.

Posted Apr 11, 21 11:37 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

1864 use to France

HAPAG Line steamer Borussia dep NYC on 6 Aug, arv Southampton Aug 19

(Add-on) Arrived Hamburg on Aug 22

Paul - always look first at the Saurday Salings by American Mail Steamships that starts on page 392.

Posted Apr 11, 21 11:36 by John Barwis (jbarwis)

New Orleans to Paris

Paul,

How about HAPAG's Borussia, dep NY 6 Aug, arr Havre 22 Aug, Paris the same day.

Posted Apr 11, 21 11:00 by Paul Dessau (paulorgantech)

cover routing, New Orleans to France

Having studied my Hubbard and Winter, I can't figure out which steamer carried my new cover. Can those, who are expert make out the French receiving mark that ties the right hand stamp? Illegible, though the experienced my be able to tell if it is Calais or Havre, or ?. On the back, is the faint lower receiving mark, Prussian or French?

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Posted Apr 11, 21 9:05 by Leonard Hartmann (hartmann)

post a link

copy and paste or type in the web address

the "link" short cut does not work on all systems

for my site just type in  pbbooks.com  or  http://www.pbbooks.com
or the full address starting with http and it may turn into a link

Posted Apr 10, 21 20:57 by Lawrence Gregg (ecovers)

Cut & Paste web links

Winston, The edit box (see attached) is what allows you to post a web link. If your browser doesn't have it you won't be able to post links. Limitation of the software.

My default browser is Opera and it too does not support the edit box. So I switch to Firefox to post links. It's not that painful.

Edited to add: Specifically it is the B I and Chain Link icons of the edit box that allow the special functions (which apparently only Firefox supports as far as I know).

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Posted Apr 10, 21 20:24 by Winston Williams (winstonw)

Cut & Paste - web links

Lawrence's posting is very well illustrated, but I get just plain text for this message board whether I use Microsoft Edge or Internet Explorer, so no web link. Any further hints?

I haven't tried Firefox that Lawrence used, but I would prefer not to download yet another program just to use for this message board when I want to have a link, and even then I suspect a plain text editor might appear.

If I start with Word, I can create a web link in that program, but when I cut/copy and paste from there into this message board, which seemed a good idea by Russ, everything becomes a plain text and the link disappears!

Posted Apr 10, 21 13:38 by Lawrence Gregg (ecovers)

Cut & Paste

Here is a screen capture on how to cut & paste.  First you type in your text and then highlight the text which will become the link to the URL.  Once you have highlighted the text click the icon next to the italic I that looks like a globe with a chain link.  That will open a pop-up window where you paste the link (you can see the Siegel link in the picture) and then click okay.  Voila!  You have done it! 

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Posted Apr 10, 21 13:30 by Lawrence Gregg (ecovers)

Cut & Paste

I'm thinking Bernard is asking how to cut & paste a link such as this to Siegel Auction Galleries

Posted Apr 10, 21 10:03 by Russ Ryle (hoosierboy)

re: cut and paste

Morning Bernard and all,

I just use the "cut and paste" function running Windows 10. It works, i.e.:

If you want to retain a posting for future reference, just copy and paste into a program such as word

Just pulled that from a previous post on this board. Also works posting text from other files and documents.

Hope that helps. Russ

Posted Apr 10, 21 7:57 by Leonard Hartmann (hartmann)

Bernard

I am not sure i understand your problem

If you want to retain a posting for future reference, just copy
and paste into a program such as word

in the text part of the posting i just copy and paist

if you want to add some additional text in your posting just
use the browse button and find the file in your computer
that you want to add, the same as adding a picture

i use XP and have no problems, some times a message will come
up asking me to authorize a transfer from my computer to Richar's
system, i just hit OK

Posted Apr 9, 21 22:28 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

How to add to postings

Could someone please explain to me how to include in a board message:
1) copy and paste text.  The paste icon is not live when I try to use it
2) how to import multiple images into one posting.  if I select a series of images, only one gets posted.
Help appreciated as this has been frustrating me for donkey's years.

Posted Apr 9, 21 20:08 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Not postal stationery

Image

Posted Apr 9, 21 20:07 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Not provisional

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Posted Apr 9, 21 20:05 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Scott T wrote,

"In my view, this debate was started in an effort to apply an intellectual standard to circumstances that were practical in nature and variable in application. Contrary to what Ken Lawrence asserts, I maintain that no substantive knowledge has been gained.

"If everyone feels better about demoting genuine provisional markings and wiping out the value of items collectors own, then go ahead. But if it is the mindset of a few people who are forcing their views on others, I am opposed."

I don't collect Confederates, but nothing philatelic is alien to me. As a former collector and gold medal exhibitor of postal stationery, I regard the difference between a stamped envelope and an ordinary envelope that requires postage as denoting two different collectible objects despite practical circumstances in which they were as such interchangeable. That distinction also applies to World War II airgraphs, including provisionals, which I do collect.

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Posted Apr 9, 21 19:30 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

How many?

Scott T asks, "Another point: prior to the Civil War period, how many US post offices used circular town-named markings with a rate inserted into the device to mark stampless covers received at the post office? Think about the Talbotton, Tuscumbia, Nashville and other circular town markings with rates inserted."

Outside my area of study, but judging by Jim Milgram's Chronicle epics, quite a number. He lists Tuscumbia Ala. 3 Paid and Nashville T. PAID 1. Both are also listed in ASCC.

Posted Apr 9, 21 18:56 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

"It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse-races." Pudd'nhead Wilson's calendar (1894)

Posted Apr 9, 21 18:10 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Courtland ALA

Below is a cover I purchased last year for a client (for a near record price for a CSA stampless I would think). I could care less if the CSA catalog, or Scott's catalog classifies it as a provisonal or a HSP. I classify it as gorgeous!

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Posted Apr 9, 21 18:01 by Leonard Hartmann (hartmann)

Provisionals, around and around and around

Enough

For a CSA provisional the basic concept is that the stamp or envelope was prepared and paid for in advance of mailing, it was only authorized by the local postmaster and mostly only accepted by him (or her) and had no official CSA approval

Now to go to other items, US and Abroad,  there are many varations on this concept and all are considred provisonals as collector consider and no objection to these concepts

A given handstamped marking can not be considered a provisonal just because  another example of the same marking are so considered

In my CSA Litho collection i have a number of stamps used over handstamps, some definitely over provisionals, some perhaps, some probably not

This is what make our hobby interesting

Posted Apr 9, 21 17:22 by Scott Trepel (strepel)

Provisional Markings

Anyone following this board discussion who has not read the CWPS articles by Frank Crown and me will have trouble fully understanding both sides of the debate. I recommend getting hold of the publication. Even better, if you are not a member, you should join today!

For me, this is a simple matter. The provisional markings should be judged as markings. If an example comes from a "special" handstamp created to make up envelopes that were sold in advance of use, then any example should be considered genuine and left at that.

Last I heard, no one involved in the debate worked in a Confederate post office, and there is no "Manual of Provisional Handstamp Application" that specifies exactly how they were applied. So, experts judging Tuscumbias or Talbottons based on theories about how things must have worked might as well read tea leaves.

As my article demonstrates, there is great variation in how these markings were applied. I did not get into the variation in how adhesive provisional stamps were applied. No one questions an adhesive stamp, but I am quite sure some of them (and some examples of others) were applied after the postage had been paid, at the time of mailing.

For example, the Liberty VA and Salem VA "PAID 5" adhesives. Here is what I wrote about the Liberty provisional (Siegel Sale 1073, lot 278):

The simple typeset provisional stamps known on covers from Liberty (Jul. 7 and Jul. 10) and Salem (Dec. 6 -- see Siegel Kilbourne Sale 815, lot 143) are identical and were evidently made by impressing printer's type by hand onto a sheet of paper. Salem, home to Roanoke College, had an active post office during the Confederate period. Liberty was located east of Salem on the Virginia & Tennessee Railroad line between Lynchburg and Salem. The use of the same stamp at two post offices seems to us to be linked to railway activity. One of the stampless Liberty covers had a coin attached to pay postage. It is likely that the provisional stamps were available briefly to persons who sent their letters to the Liberty (or Salem) offices from outlying areas, as a means to indicate prepayment in the absence of coins or government stamps.

I have seen the same type of use in Carrier and Local Post adhesive stamps. I am not sure these would pass the "applied in advance of mailing" litmus test. Does that make them "not provisional?"

Another point: prior to the Civil War period, how many US post offices used circular town-named markings with a rate inserted into the device to mark stampless covers received at the post office? Think about the Talbotton, Tuscumbia, Nashville and other circular town markings with rates inserted. If the postmaster did not intend for these to indicate that postage had been prepaid at his post office, why use the town-named markings? Some were applied in advance and others at the post office.

In my view, this debate was started in an effort to apply an intellectual standard to circumstances that were practical in nature and variable in application. Contrary to what Ken Lawrence asserts, I maintain that no substantive knowledge has been gained.

If everyone feels better about demoting genuine provisional markings and wiping out the value of items collectors own, then go ahead. But if it is the mindset of a few people who are forcing their views on others, I am opposed.

Posted Apr 9, 21 14:35 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

HSP / Provisional

It can be very hard to change nomenclature / definitions once they have been so completely integrated into the collecting habits and the catalogs for so many, many years.

Until we reach a unified and universal set of rules, categories and definitions, it will be each to his own as far as valuations and definitions.

Posted Apr 9, 21 11:02 by Frank Crown (fcrown)

Talbotton Provisionals

Re David Savadge's small collection of Talbotton, Georgia, Confederate postmaster's provisionals. I hate to say this, but all three covers are problematic. This is based on the manuscript "Paid 5" and "Paid" markings under the provisional markings.

The practice of marking letters in manuscript with the rate paid and later applying a handstamped maring goes back into the US period. The practice was frowned upon by the Post Office Department and prohibited in the PL&R.

To me the three Talbotton covers are an example of this practice that carried over into the Confederate period. An individual would bring their letter or letters to the post office and present them for mailing. The clerk would then mark them in manuscript with the rate or just paid and collect the postage. Latter the proper handstamped marking was applied.

Talbotton was not the onlyl town that did this. There are examples of the Macon, Georgia stampless provisionals that have such manuscript markings that indicate the postage paid with the actual handstamp marking applied later.

Not everyone will agree with my conclusions, but this is an example of the details you need to look for when collecting Confederate stampless provisionals.

Frank Crown

Posted Apr 9, 21 10:01 by Larry Bustillo (suburban)

Reused CSA Provisional

Bernard,

What two cities are on the alleged reused provisional you own. May we see a scan ?

Posted Apr 9, 21 7:42 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Not so much a gray area as a matter of applying the appropriate definition for the context. A cleared ship is not the same as a cleared intelligence officer, and neither of those are clarified just because the fog cleared.

See the Scott catalog definition of postmasters' provisionals for the New York stamp of 1845. See the CSA catalog for the Confederate provisionals of 1861. See the Linn's almanac for a less precise definition that applies more generally.

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