Message Board

Mark R,

We agree that this is not an entry level board. It is highly specialized. However, people who are not sophisticated in postal history are often referred here for answers to their questions (by APRL, for example), and invariably express gratitude at for the responses. Your gripe is that as a group we don't share your interests, which is an entirely different issue, followed by the non-sequitur that if this board cannot appeal to entry level postal history collectors, nothing can. In fact, there are any number of entry level forums.

However, I agree with John Barwis. If you were to show us something of interest, you might get a positive response. Carping that we collect and discuss postal history that doesn't move you isn't likely to. Nick hasn't succeeded in stimulating significant interest in stamp grading here, but he did instigate several spirited discussions about New York foreign mail markings.

Wagshal catalogs

"after all, having the balls of 7R1E is nearly as important as having the whole stamp"

John Barwis:  thank you for your message.  I wasn't raised with the idea that to be noticed or taken seriously one had to be provocative or carry a grenade.  I was taught that people in a group usually naturally took an interest in each other and their interests and that it wasn't vital that people have exactly the same interests but it was essential to respect one another and each other's interests.  I was trying to think of a kind way to say it but then Ken L gave a perfect example of what I was referring to.  I think your idea of a club with a membership is very apropos. Except that the club appears to be closed. One could view this group from the outside and sadly conclude that it is very insular with all the  relationships, knowledge, and experience that is currently needed or might be needed in the future already there. I know that's sort of how I feel. And if I feel this way, it's a good bet that some of the futures potential postal historians that some of this boards' members lament about might be turned off as well.    

Manuscripts

Mark R,

That's ridiculous. Just because your passion doesn't move me doesn't mean I have disparaged it. If you take offense that others here are not swooning over your interest, you are missing the entire point of any affinity group.

Postal History relating to stamp Collecting

Mark Robbins

Mark, well said you!! If we regard this Board as the high priestess of Postal History - that would be hard to gainsay as no other forum offers this quality of experience - then it would be oblique to say the art of stamp collecting is not somehow rather sneered upon. I believe John Barwis is wrong. Postal Historians rather like to class themselves as a breed apart. Space fillers such as myself ARE relegated to a class of collector only interested in profit and mindless album pages. To say there is NOT a schism Postal History/stamp collecting is not to be realistic. In the exhibiting world stamps and cancellations are relagated to Marcophily, the poor sister of true Postal History. That is a fact, not conjecture. I remember someone remarking to me several years ago rather patronisingly, 'Nick your exhibit will always be second class. It predicates on the stamp and the cancel'.

I might sound defensive. I am not. My exhibit has won over 20 awards in 5 outings,

I just feel the hobby should embrace both elements and not divorce one from the other. Nick

stated passions

Ken: your dismissive way of referring to another person's interests is exactly the kind of "subtle" impression that could leave a new initiate cold. Fortunately, my skin is thicker. For the record, I don't really care what you think of my passions.  But before dismissing them, try to show a little respect by at least listing them correctly and completely. Signers is one small part of my interests.  But you wouldn't know about any of the others would you because you are so busy proving to everyone how smart you think you are that you really don't take the time to hear what someone else is saying:  you're already preparing your response as to why you are right and they are wrong.  

An example of postal plus history

Excellent discussion so far.  Since Steve Walske chimed in, I'd like to use him as an example - no disrespect intended.

After receiving Siegel's catalog for Steve's through the lines material, I loaned it out to my friend.  About a week later he gave me his bids, but asked to keep the catalog a while longer.  When he brought the catalog back, I asked "what was so interesting".

The cover below.  He had started researching it even before I entered his winning bid.  Although a bit ragged around the edges, he said "that cover just screamed to have its story told".

A brief synopsis of his research, which I have read:
Sent by Sidney Prudden to his brother Dr. Samuel Prudden.  Both had 'moved south' from Connecticut to Georgia.  Sidney had been appointed postmaster at Eatonton in 1840.  He's responsible for the Eatonton Confederate provisionals.  Members of Sidney Prudden's family served as Eatonton's postmaster until 1893.  
At the start of the conflict, Samuel returned north, torn between his desire to continue practicing medicine in Georgia and his familial ties in Connecticut (which won out).  

Yes, its a south to north cover handled by the postal systems of both sides. 
Paul figured out the route it took to the exchange point, and from there to Old Point Comfort.  But he also flushed out the people involved, which gives a lot more meaning to the cover.

Inclusion

Mark R

I am truly sorry you do not feel included. The first six months I monitored the site I wondered if it was a club that required a membership card. It felt a bit like walking into a New Years Eve party at 1:00 am and being stone sober - not exactly alienated but wondering if I had the right address.

The best ways to get replies to your posts are either to ask a non-rhetorical question, or to say something provocative. Hand grenades with missing pins also seem to work well.

What are you studying? Could you please post an example or two?

CMP

Have you seen Kees Adema's book Netherlands Mail in Times of Turmoil, 1568-1795? It strikes a pretty good balance between "postal" and "history". I learned more from Kees about European history in one evening's reading than in all the school and university courses combined. A second volume is due out soon.

Manuscripts

Mark R,

I've been a member of the Manuscript Society for about as long as I've been an APS member, and I have recruited a number of postal historians to that organization. The overlap in membership is high. At least two past presidents and one past executive secretary are better known as philatelists than as manuscript collectors. Your passions reported here (signers' autographs) don't interest me in the least, and I suspect your alienation reflects that, but there are just as many stamp specialties that do not resonate here.

My collection of the 1853 New York Crystal Palace expo is more a manuscript and ephemera collection that a philatelic one, but it draws a broad positive response among all three constituencies.

Postal History and philately

I see at least two bibliographical problems: Firstly, using philatelic material to supplement and expand historical studies is not, alas, something that has received much attention in philatelic journals possibly for the good reason that very few philatelists laboured as historians. I remember a seminar given to us about 1964 or so by Fernand Braudel where he was elaborating some of the modifications he had made to a new edition of his phenomenal book on the Mediterranean during the Reign of Phillip II of Spain. He used a letter-cum-envelop written in Venice and posted to a branch of a Venetian banking house in London as a device to re-constitute how we not only understand how news travelled but how it affect actions and modes of thought. To the best of my knowledge no philatelist has ever referred to his work. In the lecture he stressed that the technique he used was first employed by Paul Vidal de la Blache, the founder of modern geography, as long ago as the middle of the 19th century in the development of his theories. Again, I have never found an echo of this in any philatelic writings. According to Vidal de la Blanche by focussing on an object, in this case an envelop, and contextualising it properly one can obtain a better understanding of the society in which it was used. Secondly, another problem is the thoroughly understandable lack of linguistic skills whereby speakers of one language often have little access to work produced in a country where another language is spoken. I sometimes wonder if philatelists today have fewer linguistic skills than a previous generation ....but that is another story. I must apologise if paragraphs are absent from what I write but I cannot fathom how to divide my words into paragraphs. Help!

Postal History

Richard:  I did not miss the Risvold sale, anyone reading this board could not possibly have missed it.  However, that sale consisted of several different types of collectors with distinctly different interests.  In that sense I agree with Steve that the results were not an abberation.  Historical manuscript auctions predominantly deal with documents either signed or in the hand of a famous historical personnage.  That is where the real money is for that type of collector.  And that is why documents showing the settling of the West, routes, fur trading, etc. will do better at a Risvold type auction than for example a Heritage/Sotheby-Copley type auction.  Truly historic letters by historic figures like John Adams and Richard Henry Lee are going to go high as long at least TWO knowledgable collectors are in the room.  However, as I recall, the Lincoln material did not do spectacularly well----which is what I would expect for an auction that really was about postal history and the history of the settlement of the West which is to my mind a totally different collector.  I am in agreement that there will always be a segment of the population that will be interested in history but in my opinion how postal history fares in the future is much more questionable beyond the current and possibly one additional generation.  This board is dealing with highly specialized knowledge and material.  You obviously have no difficulty sharing your enthusiasm among yourselves; transfering it to the next generation is another matter entirely and I would bet against your being able to do it.  I have been a collector of stamps and historical manuscripts for almost 30 years and have been an observer and occaisional poster on this board for a little more than a year I would guess---and yet I don't really feel a part of this board. I think this board sort of looks down on those of us not within the inner circle.  I grant you that it is subtle but present nevertheless.  Others have commented the same to me privately.  Several times my comments have been completely ignored as if they were never posted---  which of course is the prerogative of the board and its participants.  My point being that if you can't show interest in one like myself who is already 90% there, how do you plan to ignite the interest of a new initiate to the entire field?  

STORIES BEHIND OUR STAMPS AND COVERS

To: Steve Walske:

Thank you for capturing the essence of my message earlier.  Another way to paraphrase is that for most stamps and covers or documents we have in our collection have "Stories" to be discovered and to be shared beyond the obvious description from stamp catalogs or from traditional knowledge of the rates, routes and cancellations. I think when we take the time to discover or dig out then we have now personalized the knowledge from discovering these stories...and if we can weave them into a beginning and end via how we portray through an exhibit and or a book, the sharing of these stories makes it worth all the trouble and hard work...at least that is how I feel.

Ravi

Postal History

Postal history consists of two words: "postal" and "history" with an emphasis on the latter. Postal history is the study of communication in the context of historical events - the furor over the Risvold sale was not an aberration. 
Regardless of whatever means we use today to supply media entertainment (i.e.twitter, facebook, etc.), I do not think that interest in history will lose its cachet. We just need to make the history more relevant to our philatelic studies (Ravi's story about his daughter is a great example). 
As to references, have you checked on-line lately? My library is progressively being obsoleted by immense reference resources on-line. That should make it easier for new generations to come up to speed.

Postal History

Mark R - Possibly you missed the Risvold sale. Manuscript collectors have, in the past collected autographs only, then collected autograph content letters, and now content by "regular" folk who witnessed history. 

Such letters, as well as covers that evoke the historical event and lend an excuse to study history will be popular  as long as there are historians.

Postal History vs. Stamp collecting

Have read with interest some of the comments regarding the above referenced discussion.  I see both postal history and stamp collecting on the decline after the current and maybe the next generation pass.  With the advent of email, facebook, twitter and the like and the rarity of letter writing, I do not see future generations investing either the time or the money to understand what passed for communication in times past. Whereas one can get a reasonable basic  education about stamps from the Scott Classic and Specialized catalog, postal history requires  a fairly comprehensive library ---something I don't think future generations will be willing to invest in.  I also don't see postal history as being a side rail from historical manuscript collecting.  Manuscript collectors are interested in the contents of letters, not their covers or how a letter or document got from one place to the other.  These are two different sets of collectors which only occaisionally cross, such as with rare free franks.  In addition, manuscript collectors tend to be much more private with sharing their collections and sources than it appears postal historians are---which may be why there is no dedicated website for manuscript and autograph collectors to share information, images of items in their collections, etc. such as there is for coins, stamps, and many other types of hobbies and collectibles.

Run of Frajola catalogs for sale

I have 50 of the Frajola catalogs (plus one dupe and one Net Price Sale catalog) for sale, starting with #4. All are in VF condition, prizes realized with all but a couple/few. A very few have a small number of little notes written in, most are totally clean. $300 plus cost of shipping, firm. dicksheaff@cox.net

A rose by any other name

Nick,

As I mentioned, the nature of collecting covers has evolved from simply acquiring an example of a stamp on a letter (which was all that was ever intended in my collection, incidentally), to studying the processes related to the cover. So in that sense you are right that early cover collecting was not "postal history" as many would construe it today. Having said that, the term is thrown around quite loosly; many dealers claim they are selling "postal history" when they are really just selling covers; the postal history is the result of efforts to document the relevant processes - which most dealers do not understand.

I suppose the "when" and "how" was simply an outflow of what remained to be learned. The movements are usually started by only a few key people (Hargest & Starnes, among others, in this country).

Remember that stamp collecting has evolved as well. One of the early collectors of penny blacks thought they were best used for wallpapering her room. Plating did not really begin in earnest until well after the onset of collecting (Pack and Chase in the 1910s-20s, Purves in the 1940s-50s).  Interest in gum condition and grading followed much later than that. Who knows what's next?

I don't see much to be gained in lamenting these evolutionary changes if your main concern is a philosophical one. They are what they are.

On the other hand, if your main concern is maximizing your return, I would think that if you believe the number of serious collectors is shrinking, then selling sooner rather than later might be worth serious consideration.

1898 Book on Stamp Collecting

John Barwis
,

John, I think you miss my point. At the time this book was published there was no such category called POSTAL HISTORY. If there was no such category how can it be mentioned? All there was was stamp collecting pure and simple. The collections of the following were discussed in detail - in England, the Rev F J Stainforth, Sir Daniel Cooper, Mr Hughes-Hughes and Mr E L Pemberton. Ferrary purchased the collection of one Judge Phibrick. Other names of note included Tapling, Westoby, Baron Rothschild, Gilbert Harrison,  JK Tiffany - a US specialist, F W Ayer, an American who also amassed world rarities. These were the formemost collectors of their time, rich and vastly experienced. There is no mention of a passion for collecting ON COVER MATERIAL. All my post suggested was that clearly Postal History was not then considered a mainstream alternative to stamp collecting. At some stage that thinking changed.  I wanted to know when and how. Nick

Postal History and History- Observations

I have read with some interest the current discussions on stamps, philately, postal history and stories or history behind covers or particular postal history especially many of you who are more learned scholars with keen sense of observations.

I confess to have increasingly become interested in the "Stories behind the covers  and stamps (and in some instanceses behind some stamps or its origin, design, production, varieties, useages etc) than just pure subject of stamps and postal history related to covers.  This is particularly more relevant when I attempt to engage my friends and family about my passion and interest.

Personal experience can probably illustrate this point further.  My own family have never been interested in my passion for philately and postal history.  When I developed my first exhibit of US State Department Postal History (an 8 frame exhibit) shown in NON-COMPETITVE category of Washington DC 2006, I was able to attract interest to visit the exhibit to my daughter and partner (who both were there for me emotionally and as family) as well as the Chief Historian's Office at Department of State.  When my daughter Amber and her boyfriend (Now her husband) viewed the exhibit in tow with the small group of Chief Historian and his team from the Department of State,  I told the story about the Department of State through the stamps and covers or historical documents....They were really more interested in the historical context of Department of State conveyed through this exhibit rather than philatelic relevance (They could not care less that I was lucky to show $2 State Dept on large parcel piece)....The most satisfaction I received from this experience was when my daughter told me how fascinating my interest in the State Department postal history was to her and now she and her sister, hopefully have a more positive interest in this part of my life.

I have second story about how my partner Kathy is now intrigued with my passion for postal history and related stories...but we will save it for Taos weekend drink with friends.

Ravi

Postal history combined with "history"

My friend Paul developed quite a knack for researching the senders and receivers of his covers - using genealogy, contemporary newspaper articles, and college/university library archives.  Its amazing sometimes what he finds.  He's written up many of his covers in context with the background historical information.  His Confederate material is currently being serialized in a journal with emphasis on the people.

I have tried his methods on some of my earlier covers - its fascinating.  In his words "Covers tell a story of the people involved".  Its true, one does not always have to focus on the postal aspects.

Postal History

I have long lamented the fact that there is not a more direct path to collecting postal history. It is up to the dealers to develop those new channels. 

I look at my bookcases now and compare with available literature 30 years ago and the difference is stunning. An almost unimaginable availability of information now. However, I don't think that there will be a surge in new collectors who want to study the arcane details of postal conventions.

My vision of the future of postal history is that the study of the postal artifacts will become more related to the historical context of the item - that is we will see an integration of postal history with other forms of historical study. While still an intellectual pursuit, the study of postal history can be made more accessable to those who have interest in a specific period, or theme.

Nick,

I think you answered your own question: "...a fairly substantial book on stamp collecting from 1898 completely ignored covers." Similarly, the last book I read on baseball completely ignored cricket.

The point is that knowledgable collectors were collecting examples of stamps on cover in the 19th Century. Take the time to visit the Royal Philatelic Collection and you'll see plenty of examples.

In the 19th Century people were also publishing articles about earliest and latest known uses. That's hardly as sophisticated as much postal history research being done today, but it was a start, and helped move the discipline from "stamps on cover" to studies of postal contracts, rates, routes and handling procedures.

It's natural for people to want to know more about what drives their passion. You began the transition from stamp collector to postal historian when your NYFM collecting evolved from trying to find every cancel on a cover to trying to understand usage time-spans, who handled the covers, and how.

Many people are simply priced out of the market for superb classic material. I could not afford to re-purchase the collection I sold. Postal history affords an opportunity to acquire rare and beautiful things - and more importantly, to study them - at prices that can often be far easier to swallow.

Wagshall catalogs

Another superb job by Scott T and his group.

I have to agree with Matt, there are a few things that arouse my interest outside my main collecting areas.

Postal history and philately

There appear to be at least two views being expressed about the relationship between postal history (whether defined narrowly or more broadly) and stamp collecting or philately. This could be the theme of an interesting seminar.

Wagshal catalogs in Cleveland today.  Very, very nice - and some things I didn't know I needed to buy! :)

Postal History - Stamp Collecting

My original post was basically posing the point 'when and how did Postal History become such a feature of philately?'. I thought it interesting that a fairly substantial book on stamp collecting from 1898 completely ignored covers. When did Scott catelogue first start quoting on cover prices for example? I am aware that 'postal history' in the strictest sense can be taken back to the Egyptians or even earlier. But most stamp collectors who graduate into Postal History tend, at least initially, to collect stamps on cover, the same kind of stamps they collected off cover. Sure they might then go further back into the stampless era. But as a percentage of the collecting fraternity I would estimate they would be a fraction of the whole. Nothing wrong with that I hasten to add! But the earlier one delves the more money and knowledge is required.

Ken, The joy of not living in the US and not being party to all philatelic gossip is that I often come to something fresh. John Dunn's article made sense to me. You and he clearly have not gone on holiday together. Some of the best football managers were mediocre players. It is not constructive to use the phrase 'dumbing down'. Doesn't that infer a certain superior attitude? I found his article instructive and provocative. Now I think I know someone a bit like that .....You appear to be saying that one day stamps will have more or less disappeared and the hobby will be left in the hands of historians handling documents with cotton gloves. For someone who so aften champions underdogs that seems a rather elitist view point! But I think you are fundementally misguided. I intend living for another 20 years. Sad news for my kids but good news for the hobby. I will continue to upgrade and expand my stamp collection. I am sure there are quite a few folk who think just like me - and they might even be younger. I believe the stamps market is actually healthier than ever. The very best still attract prices unheard of 5 years ago. Slightly less attractive stamps, the fodder for most collectors, are in abundant supply at cheaper prices than ever before and available at the press of a computor button. I see nothing wrong with the market shrinking - stamps - whatever you mean by that general term are not in 'decline'. The market is adjusting and collecting interest might be changing - but I truly believe there are enough die hards to keep it going for at least another generation.
 
Lastly, if we have difficulty attracting new-comers to 'stamps' how on earth are we to attract interest in the ¨'scholarly wings of manuscript and ephemera collecting'. Sounds like quite a turn off to me. Get folk interested in stamps and there is a danger they will turn to other aspects of the hobby - like postal history.

re: Stamp collecting vs postal history vs philately?

Hi Nick and all,

Philately, as we practice it today, was alive and well long before the invention of the postage stamp.  I am still an optimist.  It will exist long after the end of the postage stamp era. 

The economics of the business side of our hobby has clearly defined how the hobby was defined over time.  Stamps off cover or never on cover could be marketed to a larger customer base.  This was so lucerative that stamps were being issued just so they could be marketed - not to actually carry mail.  Stamps will follow a different future path than covers because of this practice?  Philatelic baseball cards - I hope not? 

Fearless forcast.  The next decade or two will see both a decline in the numbers of collectors with a corresponding decrease in the marketability of both stamps and covers.  Many dealers who just know enough about what they are selling to be dangerous will move on to selling other wares more suited to their business model or another line of work.  Beyond that, my crystal ball is showing its milk glass fog.

I am not sure whether the current ratio of material in private hands vs public collections will change.  Much depends on the survivability rate of material under either model of stewardship long-term.

Scott, and others in the market today:  I notice most of the fine $5 items auctioned last December did not bring close to their stated estimates?  My unscientific survey of auction results finds an increasing percentage of items offered for sale bringing less than projected value if not going unsold entirely.   Friends, the real challenge ahead of collectors as personal stewards of many fine philatelic treasures will be the ecomonic cost of investing and holding most material compared to alternative use of our money and time. 

How many future fans of the then archaic mode of written communications will there be?

How our children and grandchildren and their offspring resolve these issue given the future times they live in will determine the long term fate of our hobby.  All we can do is be optimistic things will work out and our efforts to steward our treasures into their hands at least put them in a position to make their decisions.

Best regards,  Russ Ryle

Long Barn to Maine

Eric -

I'm pretty certain the letter would have gone by rail into London, and then on to Southampton by rail where it was loaded onto the Queen Mary. The crossing was between 4.5 and 5 days depending on conditions, then maybe flown to Maine from New York. I can't determine the rate even though I have many other 1930's Queen Mary items. It seems like it should be 2 1/2d international letter + 2 1/2d for airmail in US. I'm open to any correct information.

My interest in the Queen Mary is due to my family emigrating to the US in October 1951 on the ship. A very stormy crossing arriving 8 hours late in New York due to storm. It is 1000ft long and I have a very vivid memory of walking with my father along the side gallery looking forward and seeing the whole length of the ship going down up and down, huge waves.

Roger

Long Barn cover

Roger,

I enjoyed your post.  I don't collect much postal history, but I find old letters to be fascinating glimpses into history.  Some years ago I bought a correspondence from Matt Liebson and spent many hours with many well-written letters.  On the way to a Stampshow in Atlantic City, I even stopped in Philly to see the house where the writer (a well-known minister) lived.  Now you can see the house on Google street view....

I actually have a question about your cover.  I'm trying to reconcile the Queen Mary endorsement and airmail etiquette.  I know there was no transatlantic airmail at the time, and AFAIK, the British didn't offer catapult service from their ocean liners as the Germans did.  Was the airmail service Long Barn-Southampton, New York-Maine, or both?

Stamps

Nick,

John Dunn doesn't collect stamps or postal history. For the past 25 years (at least) he's been beating the drum for dumbing down the hobby, and that available resources should be used to proselytize rather than to serve existing collectors.

In my opinion, the argument is wrong. Stamps per se are in decline, and probably will not return to former glory. It isn't just the number of collectors, dealers, publications, circulation, membership, album and supplement sales, catalog sales, and supplies. It's also that stamps are historically obsolete, so their cultural station has changed.

Going forward, philately should be positioning itself as among the most sophisticated and scholarly wings of manuscript and paper ephemera collecting. Those are the growth areas. In that field, postal history is at least equal to stamps in importance, even at the entry level.

Postal history

Nick, Thanks so much for the kind comments. I much appreciate what you write. I am sure the difference is a small one and one day when we meet we can have a lovely discussion.

Schisms

Nick

I perceive no schism whatsoever. People simply change their interests.

I think you are probably unduly misled by the friendly ribbing you have taken on this board. No one that I know holds in disrespect anyone simply because they are interested in philatelic areas widely disparate from their own.

Postal/Social history in a new era

I have collected stamps and transitioned over to cancel collecting about 10 years ago. 50% of my stamps sit in albums on my book shelf. The coming of the internet has opened up the opportunity to research postal history items that previously were of no interest to philatelic collectors.

This example is a basic ordinary air mail cover addressed to Lewis O Barrows, the Governor of Maine, 1 June 1937.

The return address on the back is seen below and that is the story.

Long Barn has an interesting history. Charles Lindbergh and his wife Anne Morrow rented Long Barn in 1935 to avoid all the publicity of the investigation and trial of their son’s kidnapper. The Lindbergh family stayed at Long Barn for three years. This discovery led to the facts that, “Her father [Dwight Whitney Morrow] was consecutively a lawyer, a partner at J. P. Morgan & Co., United States Ambassador to Mexico, and Senator from New Jersey.” Further research revealed there was a long family friendship between Anne’s father and Gov. Barrows which led to the Morrow family spending many summers in Maine. These trips occurred prior to and after Anne’s marriage to Lindbergh in 1929. Since the Governor was a friend of the family, personal correspondence must have continued. My conclusion is that this cover contained a letter written by Anne Morrow to the Governor during her stay at Long Barn.

It was $2.00 buy on eBay and has to me a story more interesting than the single 5d stamp. Condition, eh! I thoroughly enjoy googling recipients and their addresses, etc., especially using google maps (ground level) to look at buildings where letters were delivered 100 to 150 years ago. All very interesting.

Roger

Postal History

John Barwis

John, I recall you were a pretty avid collector of stamps at one stage in your development. And what a wonderful collection you amassed! My point is that for the majority of collectors the stamp remains paramount. The thrust of the article in The ASDA mag was absolutely to the point. There is a schism developing between Postal History and Stamp collecting. That cannot be healthy for the hobby as a whole. Nick. 

cover to France

Kevin, thanks.