Message Board

War of 1812 Collection

I just uploaded a searchable PDF file of my Net Price #1 here.

Lotting

Kind of quiet around here.... Richard F, as a collector rather than a dealer, I think your lotting strategy is beyond brilliant. I remember when you sold the Len Persson collection in one of your auctions (back when you had postal history auctions).  Nearly all of the particular territory/state I happen to like--somebody has to--was offered in one lot. I travelled to Danbury to view the lot and attend the auction in person (with the late Henry Spelman who some here may remember for his postal history auctions).  I bought the lot I wanted for a fraction of my bid, and I still have most of the covers.  Many of the covers were the only covers known from the towns or the earliest/best postmarks/best usages known from the towns.  Large lots are definitely the way to go.

Animas City

I am pleased to see the APS raising money for itself by selling off excess material on eBay.  A review of their current listings and recently closed items reveals that the APS is not selling a large quantity of Colorado material or anything else of significant value.  It looks to me like they’re just doing a bit of housecleaning.

Lotting

Matt L - You are making a typical collector mentality mistake in my opinion. Large lots are an integral part of selling any larger collection. They bring dealers to the auction that once there want to spend money. They lend credibility that it is a legitimate estate sale (meaning unreserved usually),  and the large lots often bring more, to much more, than they are worth. A feeding frenzy ...

A dealer who comes for the large lots and who when bidding on a better individual lot hits a few bumps underbidding more that pays for any small dollar cover that brings $5 instead of $20. It is the total that matters, not how you get there.  

Further, the more you take out of any collection the less desireable it is for an auctioneer to handle. Now they will have to answer questions like: "where is that Animas City cover I knew Bill had? I would buy 50 junk covers just for that one."

I could really go on, but do hope that the powers at APS are not that ignorant of the auction market. However, many of these people are likely buyers only in the past and don't grasp some of the finer points of selling.

Richard:  I would think it depends on what parts.  If the APS has volunteers to do the listings, aren't they better off breaking down the lesser material that would otherwise get bulked out?  I would certainly think they should sell the best material at auction....

Animas City

I just looked at the ebay listing. I really can't believe that APS is selling what I presume to be parts of Bill Bauer's collection of Colorado on ebay. I REALLY hope that I am mistaken.

Animas City

Bill L - To be clear. I am not the "Richard" you refer to.

Los Animas is in the San Juan mountains (check Durango & Silverton RR on the internet) and there are several very good collectors of CO including a couple who specilaize in the San Juans. Having said that, that is not an exceptional number of page views on better postal history on ebay when I sell there. Also, it may well be high bidder checking in on status numerous times.

PS - It is a scarcer town as most mail was posted at larger, nearby office of Animas Forks

What is so special about this cover?

Posted on ebay by Richard at the APS is this cover with over 250 views.  Is there something special about this cover that we have overlooked or is it just the funny name of the town?

Description:    1878 Animas City, La Plata Co., Colorado, registered DPO cover, 3¢ Washington (#U163) sent on March 16, to Lake City, Colorado, received March 20 (paid bank docketing in blue), registration paid by 10¢ Jefferson continental (#161), canceled by double circle negative star killer and cds both in purple. No postal markings on back. The Animas City post office was in operation from 1877 until 1885 when its name was changed to Animas, in turn another DPO, and is listed in Helbock’s (1998) with a value rating of 5.   Condition is very clean with strong strikes, neatly slit open at top, 10¢ stamp missing large piece top left.

What Happened

William Cummings,

re your comment,

" many of the stamps he had wanted being sold by dealers there at less than the final auction price. We had quite an interesting discussion over what probably transpired there. "

and what had probably transpired, some sort of conspiracy,

David B.

BALPEX

Will also be at BALPEX - the ARA is meeting there.

Balpex

Larry,

Look forward to seeing you at Balpex.  

Matt

Lou Robbins

    I remember when I upset Lou. I mentioned a recent column by the dealer in Shrub Oak where that dealer had passed a store window, noticed a deck of cards there, and realized that it had an unlisted revenue stamp on it. He bought it and showed it around at the next Collector's Club meeting.
    Lou exploded. I won't repeat what he said exactly, since some of our readers are under 50, but the gist was that Lou's brother, Phil, was the one who had found the stamp, not the man who was taking credit for it.
    I remember, too, when Lou came back from a buying trip to Europe and was very unhappy about the results. It seemed that lots were going at very high prices in the auction and he wasn't getting too many of them. He continued his trip to a stamp show, probably in Germany but I am not sure, and found many of the stamps he had wanted being sold by dealers there at less than the final auction price. We had quite an interesting discussion over what probably transpired there.

Brattleboro

This is not my area, i have not seen the stamp or in fact touched any Brattleboro

To me it is evident the spot is a transient from foreign matter, perhaps dried ink, etc.  on the plate

On the actual stamp, assuming it hasn't been soaked too many times, this should 
be evident

Nuf said, i know not more if this much

Leonard

scan

Al - I don't know if this is more helpful to those studying your stamp.
I just took your image and did a quick contrast, sharpen, color correction, levels, etc. Maybe they can see something in addition to features already commented on.

Roger

Lou Robbins

Lou was one of the greats, especially to reporters, because he detested humbug. Given his pervasive business connections, Lou did not like to be quoted making waves, but when a report needed to be vetted by lawyers for publication, Lou was often the unnamed confirming source.

He was also the man with the longest memory. About 15 years ago, Linn's made a habit of decorating the front page with photos of stunningly centered U.S. classic stamps with clean certificates that achieved multiples of catalog value in A-list auction sales, accompanied by hyperbolic superlatives in the descriptions.Today they would be graded 98J and 100J. One day Lou informed the reporter that several of those superb jumbo stamps were actually large margin copies that had been reperforated. He knew because he had handled them before they were worked. His tip brought an abrupt end to the feature. During one of my investigations, Lou remarked that Jack Molesworth's report about doctored stamps, "The tip of the Iceberg," was aptly titled, perhaps even more so than Jack intended.  

Brattleboro Provisional

I retract my previous theory regarding the 11th position. I hadn't seen that stamp before and was working on the supposition it was genuine.

AJV

Below is 1200 dpi, the best I can do.

BALPEX

Lawrence LeBel

Lawrence, unexpectedly I will be attending BALPEX. You will recognise me. I am the substantial looking gentleman, quietly spoken with a string of onions over my shoulder.

I had hoped I would be then going down to see RF in New Mexico but business has rudely intruded.

Hope we make contact! Nick

Brattleboro

I’m now having a hard time believing our flaw was caused by paper after Chip provided me with the image. Perhaps the images provided would help others.
The dark contour line around perimeter shows unevenness, a coagulation or dissipation, then a build up of the ink. The inner area has more of an even flow to it. Almost looks like the ink was disturbed on the sheet, perhaps by a small drop of water or sweat. 
Really hard to say without examining the stamp firsthand.

Chip,
THANK YOU.

Scott:
The offical term for this (well, official amongst my family), would be "schmutz."

Stephen:
Al did post this picture a while ago of the spot.
Chip

Brattleboro

I believe Scott T is right on point. I wonder if Al Valente would be willing to show a higher resolution image of the stamp?
Also, I'm not sure if copper plates would produce enough force, or the setup used in the mechanical application of the process at the time of printing could produce enough force to cause even a slight protrusion on the reverse side of the stamp.

Brattleboro

Copper plate. One printing. No corrosion.

I think the shape of the flaw impression and dark contour line around perimeter suggest something adhering to the plate or paper, which prevented the ink/paper from entering the recessed lines (as it must in engravure printing) but formed a ring around the amorphous shape.

Brattleboro

Alan,

The dark halo around the blemish's perimeter supports the notion that it was a pit, as ink along the inside edges of a negative-relief space are more difficult to remove during wiping. So I agree with you there.

But since the 500 sheets allegedly produced could easily have been pulled in only a few days, simple corrosion seems unlikely to me. Besides, was the plate not copper? Copper doesn't rust, and won't even gain a patina in less than a week.

Anyone working with copper plates would have acid in his shop, to use for etching. I vote for sloppiness rather than aging.

Balpex 2010

Who will be attending Balpex this weekend?  I will look for you if you are attending.

Brattleboro Provisional Plate Flaw

I generally agree with the premise that for a variety to be classified as a repeating plate flaw instead of a printing anomaly, a confirming copy needs to be found. But for very rare stamps, where plate damage may have occurred late in production, this may be virtually impossible. O52, the 12¢ Post Office official stamp, is relatively common, but a huge scratch appeared late at position 100. I have searched for years for a confirming copy, to no avail. Fortunately, there exists a single card proof (printed later) which confirms that this is a plate variety, along with a photograph of the Earl of Crawford proof sheet. The flaw on AJ Valente's stamp looked to me like a rust pit, a form of plate damage that was probably not there when the first printings were pulled.

Lou Robbins

"Icon" is an overused word, but in fact, Lou Robbins was one of the last. I was thrilled to see the American Stamp Dealer and Collector Magazine induct him into their Dealer Hall of Fame within the last few years, a well-deserved honor. But Lou's kindness and generosity knew no bounds. I told this story for the ASD&C readers shortly after he was honored, but it is worth telling again to anyone who missed it;

  In 1985 we were set to conduct our Public Auction No. 8, but our first  in NYC at the Collector's Club, and at that time Abbot Lutz was in charge of booking auctions into the club and was a licensed auctioneer as well, so we hired him to call  the sale. A day or two before the sale, we got a telephone call from Lou explaining that Abbot had fallen ill and could not call the auction, but Lou, who was also an auctioneer, offered to fill in for Abbot. We gratefully accepted.

  The auction took place without a hitch.  After the sale, we went to pay Lou for his services, whereupon he refused payment, and instucted us to send the money to Abbot instead!  After that, Lou became our auctioneer, and continued to be our auctioneer until he retired from that part-time occupation. He was a stern and accurate auctioneer and did a great job for us for all those years, for which we will be eternally grateful.

  Mrs Robbins (Estelle) has also always been kind and gracious to us, and we send her our condolances. God bless them both.

Lou Robbins

I first met Lou Robbins at the Detroit airport in 1972. I had been asked to pick him up at the airport to bring him to the Koerber auction office to view lots. 

The look on his face was remarkable when he saw the small sports car I came in (a TVR) but got worse when he tried to climb in as it was so low to the ground. After a white-knuckle drive to the office, and some conversation, he warmed up a little bit to me. After that, he always asked me if I still had the car ... I must have replied in the negative at least 50 times but it always brought a smile to us both.

In the old days of auction agents, Lou handled all my bids when I didn't attend sales (one of the other agents of the era had a habit of falling asleep). 

Certainly an icon of philately on the American scene for a long time. A hall of famer for sure.

I am very sad to learn of the passing of Lou Robbins.
Lou was one of the great ones: a gentleman, always honest, and he sure knew his stamps! 

4-16

Nick,

Not as bad as you may think. It is unlikely to mean a medal level.

Visit the Rothko collection in Houston if you are ever there - but not if you're feeling suicidal.

Cincinnati dc cancel and grid- duplex?

Geoff, the first recorded use of a duplex cancel (CDS + killer) was Aug 8, 1860 by .  NYC.  Cleveland used one a month later while Cincy was one of the early ones as well.

Passing Of Lou Robbins

Philately has lost an Icon with the passing of Lou Robbins......... I first met Lou in 1975 when I was just poking my nose out and went to my second philatelic auction in New York.  He did not know me and being the gentleman he was, came up to me and introduced himself.  Between then and early 80's I would see Lou often.  I stood in awe of Lou as he had been, thren, in organized philately for almost 50 years.

As my auction agent, there was many a time Lou snagged that elusive item in  an auction craftily  using "with your discretion," never leaving a great piece wanting for just one bid.

The cycle of life must continue but it is sad to loose another friend. 

Positioning

Have just realised that one of the major covers in my re-arranged and reduced five frame New York Foreign Mail exhibit for Portugal is positioned at 4-16 ie on the bottom row at the extreme right. If you do not exhibit then you do not realise the absolute and total unmitigated disaster this position represents. How about an invisible black hole?Oh, why not just move it out of sequence to the premier position 5-1? Easier said than done - I have already informed the judges in my synopsis 4-16 is where it will be. It is a bit like placing your Mark Rothco on the restroom wall and your repro pictures of the holiday beach in Sardinia up in living room. Now, if judges could be limited in height to a max, of say, 5 feet 4 inches I would not be so bothered.

Lou Robbins

It is always sad to hear of an old friend passing but i have nothing but fond memories of Lou and Estelle

They were always first rate in every respect, honest and knowledgeable. I remember having dinner with Estelle in the early 1970's in New Orleans, a Bruce Ball sale, Lou was tied up at another auction and she was a bit nervous of the resonsibility. I have an auction catalog, an early Chicago cover was on the front cover, i gave Lou a good bid but told him i had problems with the marking and date, he didn't execute the bid and commented he thought the date on the letter was not in the same penmanship. The early 2000 i had dinner with them after the office was closed, they were both in excellent form.There was a 95th birthday, etc. dinner for Lou, i even more now regret but i could not attend.

Fortunately there are still a few around of there stature and there is much hope that classic philately will continue, ie the people.

Leonard

Lou Robbins

I only briefly met Lou.  But, part of my Siegel Auction run was part of Lou's personal set.  His notations are unbelievable and he had some eye for detail.  My prized copy of Moritmer Neinken's sale (including 10 cent collection) is hand annotated by Lou.

Louis Robbins

I'm posting this from Richard Frajola via Bob Markovits.

IT is with the deepest regret that the family of Louis K. Robbins announced his death on Saturday at age 98.  His philatelic dealings from 1928 were always done with honor and a humbleness that showed through.  I first met Lou in 1955 since I had just started collecting US Special Delivery material and he had been collecting special delivery material of the world since 1928.  He was and will always remain a gentleman, scholar and true friend.  His memory will live on with Ruth and me.  I loved to drive him home from Collectors Club meetings over the years, hear his stories, and gain knowledge from his vast experience.  Our sympathy goes out to his widow Estelle, daughter Sarah and son Ira and families.  I believe a memorial service will be held at the Collectors Club of New York in the near future, where he was a life member.
Robert L. Markovits

Scott T........

Given that you have examined the position 11, I understand.

John B......

I never expected the plate was anything other than 2 x 5. 

Plate Flaw

Yes Richard, when the flaw develops and is exactly the method I used when I discovered the early trial color die proofs for the 15c 1870 (Chronicle 220). I too am skeptical and the reason for my post was to draw this out a little further. I would like to add a few comments which will now drive me crazy about the certificate. 

But first this clarifier; in no way shape or form has this anything to do with a negative comment about the PF. After all we are second-guessing their conclusions without seeing the worksheets. 

A certificate in some instances is not merely the conclusion that a stamp is genuine but can be one setting a new criterion. Previous students or even contemporary ones of this issue would surely have to devote more time to the understanding of this cert. With the number of Brattleboro stamps so limited for study, surely this will add to the difficulty of changing this conclusion. Next, the exhibitor will now be judged as to not having a major variety. I could add more but these two bring the greatest torment. 

Not second-guessing the PF but I would hope all the major students of this stamp were consulted. It may turn out that they were overlooked.

Manuscripts

The new issue of Manuscripts that arrived in this morning's mail includes an enthusiastic review of Lost Rights by David Howard, the book I recommended here recently.
"Howard's Lost Rights, while not a treatise on replevin but a true crime story, will give the autograph community much food for thought on this very real and pressing issue. It's a marvelous replevin case study, and in this instance this reviewer [William Butts] agrees that North Carolina had every right to aggressively pursue this document. Unvarnished greed on the part of dealers and others who ought to have known better . . . document sleuthing involving one of the Holy Grails of American documents . . .  Howard's Lost Rights is a first class read that entertains as well as educates."

Plate Flaw

Stephen T - A plate flaw will occur on every example printed from a particular plate position after the flaw develops. So, theoretically, every example from Brattleboro position 6 printed after a plate flaw would show the flaw.

Personally,  I share Scott's skepticism that it is a plate flaw (without a second example to confirm that it is not a printing flaw).

Brattleboro

Ron

It's unlikely that a smart engraver/printer would make a plate of eleven subjects without having added a twelfth. Had twelve subjects been engraved, it is more likely that the plate's format would not have been 6 x 2, but rather 3 x 4 or 4 x 3.

Had a 6 x 2 plate been prepared, the marginal inscription would most likely have been centered across the bottom, i.e., straddling the vertical margin between positions 9 and 10. Luff (1902, p. 14) shows it centered beneath position 8.

Brattleboro Plate Flaw ?

My understanding of a plate flaw is that the anomaly is present on the printing base and will continue to be reproduced until it is either altered or repaired. This would mean that this flaw will be present on every position. Is this the case?  

Brattleboro

There was also a lot of nonsense about the 10c 1847 "Knapp Shift" being genuine.

Both Phil Wall and I have physically handled the "Mystery Position 11", and we could never understand how anyone thought it was genuine. No disrespect to Weills et al, but it's not a convincing fake.

Cal Hahn's series in the Collectors Club Philatelist is a comprehensive plating study.

Brattleboro Counterfeit

Scott T......

You are dismissing the "position 11" as counterfeit but I do know when the Weills had it there was a lot of documentation stating that many experts agreed is was original to the period.  Some thought a proof, etc.

Can you point us to documentation or articles that now state the "position 11" is a true counterfeit?

Canada Posted Letter Guide 1851-1902

The original edition of The Canada Posted Letter Guide 1851-1902 by Charles G. Firby and Victor L. Willson was published in 1996.  The book values Canadian covers based upon their destination and stamps used for franking.  The second edition, edited by Victor L. Willson, is being published on-line and made available freely on the British North America Philatelic Society’s web site, www.bnaps.org, by clicking on the “Education Sites” button and then selecting “Canadian Philately”.   The sections covering Pence, Decimal, Large Queens, and Small Queen issues are available immediately.   Further sections in development are the Jubilee, Map, Leaf, and Numeral issues.

Sections will be revised on an approximate six month cycle for additions to the listing. Price updates will not occur any sooner than a two-year cycle.

Brattleboro

John B:

Al's stamp is genuine, Position 6. This example of Pos 6 shows the flaw.

I was referring to the so-called "Mystery Position 11" which bounced around years ago and is a counterfeit.

Cincinnati dc cancel and grid- duplex?

Power search 'Cincinnati' on Siegel brings up several covers, and stamps of same time period, w same orientation of grid to cancel, a duplex?

CINCINNATI COVER

Thanks for the input.

Paul

Plate Flaw?

Al,

The law of crosscutting suggests it is not a post-damage re-entry. Were that the case, the vertical shading lines would not be truncated by the blob.

It looks like an acid droplet. Such damage could have occurred at any time in the plate's use.

I lack the exertise to  speak to the forgery issue. Scott, what makes you say it's fake?

Schmutz

Al:
Still looks to me like a small piece of something (probably paper) got on the plate and was inked and printed, rather than a re-entered position.  Other than the black spot, is it a match for any of the positions?  Or conclusively ruled out as being from one them?
C.
(Al's detailed scan, for anyone following along at home)