Message Board

Down Mexico Way

Nick - What a marvelous revelation you propose!! Rogue IRS types operating in the post office as early as the 1870's!! I’d love to run with it but it’s too political!! 

Records indicate that the postmaster ran a tight shift. I simply can’t put my finger on it as I believe it may be several things occurring; though I think more than one for sure.
No apology needed for what you cull from your exhibit. Though I disagree what we see from this mail type that it's an exception rather than a rule we don’t understand yet.

Down Mexico Way

Stephen, I agree - in fact I reckon the vast majority of mail to Mexico WAS duplexed and v few fancies. Your top cover even looks to be duplexed - the '8' with the datestamp - gorgeous cover by the way. Almost certainly there was a seperate section dealing with these mails-- maybe it was not even a formalised arrangement - just a couple of clearks who made it their business and carried their own cancellors.

There are benefits of having to reduce my NYFM exhibit to include the pre 1870 era. I have removed the circular mail - and boy there are a couple of gorgeous fancies there and several other covers of dubious origin. I, like you, remain undecided about how to treat Mexican mails. If the duplex factor is paramount - then most of the covers to Cuba are duplexed also. If I removed all my duplexed covers I might have a few blank spaces but perhaps that is the purist way to go. There will always be the exception just like domestic NYC mail that somehow got a bonefide NYFM cancel. Nick

Shipping invoices

I apologize in advance that I don’t recall the board member having sent me a few of these invoices. Would you please contact me off board?
Also, if anyone has shipping invoices to Mexico I would like to purchase what you may offer. Again, please contact me off the board.

Mex Mail

Hubert shared with me some very valid points on his thoughts on mail to Mexico: whether by train, out of the mails via New Orleans reaching Mexico, or even by direct steamship from New York. Speaking for myself,  I have not quite resolved the issue with any certainty. There may have been a couple of internal changes concerning how the mail was handled to Mexico. Granted there are some splendid geometrics but also  some dull duplexes.

The APS currently has an opportunity to raise matching funds through the  'Centre Gives" giving challenge arranged by the Centre Foundation and supporting Centre County, PA charitable organizations.  Donations made today and tomorrow (May 22 and May 23) are partially matched with up to $100,000 in funds, with some extra prizes available for number of donors, etc.  Last year the matching was about 25%.  this is a good chance for your donation dollars to go a bit further than usual - see here for the details and to make a donation if you are so inclined.

Board Problems

Hopefully all is resolved now. Please advise me by email if there are further problems.

NYFM (William Weiss post)

Thank you Nick for your concise summation of the NYFM book.  No-one is more qualified than you are to offer this type of synopsis, so hopefully it will be the "last word" here!

You are correct that Hubert held a grudge because we differed in our definition of what constituted a NYFM, and I remember well a lively debate we had at a small bourse in New Orleans many years ago, which I had stumbled upon as a side trip to a poker tournament I was playing in.  And he carried the grudge for a long time, so as he walked up to Jim Lee's table at Washington/2006, I said to him "do you remember me", to which he said "sure, you are my nemesis"!  So I walked up closer to him, patted him on his chest and said "just because we have a difference of opinion on some obscure subject shouldn't mean we need to hate each other as humans, does it?".  Whereupon he agreed, and we shook hands and made our peace.  And may he rest in peace.

And that true story is far more important than any old book, and I hope readers agree!

India Mail

I answered Mark Kelley's question privately

Testy enough?

Emotions will soon be high enough to disuss Grinnells.  Keep tossing NYFM grenades in there and I'll watch for my chance.

request for info

Gordon,

Sent a quick email with some details and links to items in my exhibit.  Ten years after the period he wants, but it gives some of the details.  I suspect others could supplement well.

Rob

This came to the Classics Society. Can someone help him via email?

I am a Literature PhD student at the University of California San Diego and am doing an article on the India mail in US 19th century popular fiction. I have a quick question about the status of postage during the period. I have done research on the 1848 postal agreement and its amendments, but figured it was worth writing the experts!  Any help is much appreciated!

In one novel I focus on, The Lamplighter (1854), we are told, “Every India mail brought news from Willie Sullivan.” We find the heroine “one Sabbath afternoon…with an open letter in her hand, the numerous postmarks upon the outside of which proclaimed from whence it came” (167).  So I have a couple of questions about those fictional postmarks. 

As the 1848 agreement states, postage would be paid by the sender- so a letter would be 21 cents, correct? Also, would that letter also be stamped at the various locations?  For example, I have tracked a contemporary letter on the following route:

Calcutta-Madras-Point de Galle- Aden-Suez (overland)-Alexandria- Malta-Marseilles-Southampton-New York- Boston.

Where/when would such a letter be marked?  I know the overland covers had their own cachets, but I'm not sure which would be used?  Would you happen to have an example from that route? Since this is a piece of fiction, one cannot know which India route it took, but I am arguing that knowing the postal history is vital for understanding the larger themes/context of the novel.

I am a novice at all of this, but have really enjoyed learning about it. And I will make sure to cite/thank your society in any published work I do! Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns. Thanks.

Mark  Kelley
[email protected]
(815)228-1906

IP Issue (?)

Bill W - I am told it may also be an issue with specific IPs (infected or spam producing IPs). Please email me your IP address and I will forward to my programmer. In interim, you might try posting using Firefox rather than IE.

Bill read Richard's post below yours ...

NYFM

Forbidden You do not have permission to access this document.

Messages

I just spent ten minutes typing in the same message I've tried to post multiple times in the last two days and when I hit the enter option, up comes a "Forbidden" notice!  What the heck is going on?

Messages

The board will not allow cut and paste messages at all. But it also would not allow three fully-typed messages I composed yesterday either, so I'm wondering if anyone else has had any problems posting messages?

re: Hopefully, the last word on any (philatelic) subject is yet to be written ...

Morning all,

If the subject line of this note is incorrect; then, as the last person left, please turn off the lights ... :)   Amy researcher and author leaves behind information gathered by their efforts for others to build upon.  It is this future building process that will keep our paper treasures from becoming "waste paper".

"Information shared is history saved."  Nick, I know you would love to go back and be the preverbal fly-on-the-wall with me in the NYC GPO building back in the eras of our current research.  Unfortunately, the details of commen daily tasks are often not documented as they seem at the time to be of no future value.   But then look at the pleasure we can now gain playing history detective.

Best regards,  Russ Ryle

"cut and paste postings"

Richard

not sure what you mean by not allowing "cut and paste postings",  at times i will take a text portion of a posting from some file in my computer, in which case i get a message to the effect that i must "allow access to my computer", i click yes and it works.

i use Microsoft XP, the origin of the text is from various files in different programs   

Leonard

Board Problem

Hopefully fixed now but please advise if there is a continuing issue:

It seems that the board is not allowing cut and paste postings - they return "Forbidden" notices. Regular typed entries are unaffected. I will try to have my programmer address the issue today.

Ropex

Mark, thanks for the congrats. I guess even the so called midgets win the big prize once in a while:)

Thank you George.  That helps tremendously.

Freight Money Letter

http://www.rfrajola.com/freight/freight.htm

Can anyone provide a definition of Freight Money Letter?
Please?

Doing Things

Very interesting background information,Nick K. Thanks!

Gray's Express - Part II

However, this type is genuine (1850 Sacramento postmark). I see Frajola has a nice one listed for sale in the Walske material.

Gray's Express

These Gray's Express covers are fabrications.

Reference material

Thanks to all that have the ability and wear with all to publish reference material. Its an ongoing study. Just within the last month, Oscar Thomas's book on Western Express Companies was released. My understanding an update to ASCC is in the works. Found out through Oscar's book that my recently acquired Grays Express cover was sadly, no good. Kind of made me laugh. Thanks you guys for your effort. Keep it up.

Just a quick note...if anyone has any postal savings certificates from any series (1911, 1913, 1917, 1918, 1939, 1954) I am trying to do some census work and would appreciate hearing from you.  Image here is one of the 1911 series certificates, which are quite scarce.

ROPEX

Greg, Congratulations on winning the Grand at ROPEX for your perf. 10 rotary coil exhibit! See you at NOJEX.

Doing Things

Years ago I did an Open University course. We stood in front of a Rothko and one of the students said - I could have done that. The teacher responded - well, why didn't you? 

I remember that comment when I hear criticism of Bill Weiss's NYFM book. Carrying it around with me as I used to attracted knowing smiles and barbed comments. Some of the culprits had never even read it and many had scant interest in New York Foreign mail either. I first meeting Hubert Skinner at Washington 2006. He seemed to take the book almost as a personal affront. Yes, he did have some valid points. Listing the cancel designs chronologically rather than by design type might have been helpful but that was just the way Bill wanted to do it. Hubert had a REAL bee in his bonnet about what mail actually constituted NYFM. In his more waspish moments he suggested that any mail that left NY by train, for example, did not qualify. But Bill's book was about NYFM CANCELS. And some fine geometrics, for example, trained down to Mexico or across to San Francisco to get to the Far East. He also thought it illogical to start at 1870. But Bill only went down that path because it had historically been the start of the period of NYFM since at least 1926. On these aspects Hubert made what was probably he only post on this Board.

Victor K is quite right - the information that was available to NYFM collectors prior to Bill Weiss's book was scant indeed. What has really changed, of course, since the book was published in 1990 is the emergence of more and more material which changes dates for use, numbers of covers. There is another development - collectors like me who are trying to cross-fertilise into postal history and set NYFMs in a far broader context - back to 1845 - clearly are going to judge the book more critically as discoveries are made and pre-conceptions are over-turned.

So Bill, do not beat yourself up over this. You can be immensely proud of your book. It attracted a whole host of folk into collecting NYFM, myself included. Thank you!

Napex

Ron and Nick,

I will see you both, but will be letting the heavy weights fight it out since I will be in the court of honor:)

NOJEX/NAPEX

Thanks for all the input on NOJEX and NAPEX. I am going to attempt to take in both of them if I can. I do confess to being at least slightly intimidated by the directions that pop up for NOJEX, but less so than having to request an extra show budget from the CFO!!! For anyone who saw me at TPR in October, the long hair is no more. I had to sell it to buy postal history.

New Orelans 1862 Small Double Circle Port Marking

Just mounted another page

Now Run Your Quill Pens Through It,  ie paraphrase 1776

FFE #16 just arrived, am now packaging to start mailing today

Leonard

NOJEX vs NAPEX

Andrew, both shows are great but NAPEX wins slightly for better hotel, restaurants, & transport...I'll be at both again (next to Don Tocher at NOJEX and next to Mary & Lebron Harris at NAPEX) and wouldn't want to miss either show.  There aren't many dealers who do both shows, so best to check the dealer lists on the show websites
www.nojex.org and www.napex.org  Steve

Napex

NAPEX has a much bigger bourse (I think 80+ dealers at NAPEX vs. less than 40 at NOJEX) and regularly has a very strong schedule of presenations.  This year, our local USPCS group is hosting presentations by Mark Schwartz and Ron Cipolla.  
That said, I would recommend looking at both show websites to see if there is a dealer attending NOJEX or society meeting at NOJEX that tips the balance for you. 

NOJEX or NAPEX

With all respect to the NOJEX show committee, NAPEX rocks!

NOJEX or NAPEX?

I have never been to NOJEX or NAPEX but likely can only carve out time for one of them (carve out budget also, I suppose). Any recommendations out there?

New NYFM book?

Bill Weiss obviously defends his own book. There is no doubt that his book is the best one that has been published sofar. That doesn't mean that there are might be some flaws/problems in his book, there are several ones. In heinside there is always something that should't have been there if one had known that at the time. But who cares? If someone wants to correct some flaws that he thinks should be corrected, he can write an article in the USPSC and the USCC magazine.

The last word will probably not been written on NYFM issues, as Bill thinks. But I doubt that anyone will improve on his book within the next several years to come.

Nick' Stomach

Nick...... that was good!!!!  See you with your tiny tummy at NAPEX - it has been too long!

Personal Attacks

We are all big boys and girls and very well understand the line between "opinion/facts" and "personal attacks" or innuendows.  It is the personal attacks that have to 100% stop here on the board.

Except for a few children NO ONE likes it and it accomplishes NO positive result.

So as Richard says self-police........ for those that cannot/willnot, Richard, PLEASE take their posts down before they cause a problem.  For repeat offendors Richard, totally block their access to the board - PLEASE!

big?

Nick: Unless your stomach is a great evil, it is not an enormity.

BIG

David H,

That is impressive. Thank you. So when people comment on the enormity of my stomach they are incorrect? That's a relief. Nick

Board Decorum

Mr T;

  Richard's directive to self-police the forum is admirable, if it weren't for human weaknesses. I would like to keep any discourse here, on any subject, but particularly the ones you raised about NYFMs, as civil as possible.

  I honestly wish, as Richard and others have urged you, to publish your work for all to benefit. It does no one any good, particularly in a relatively narrow collecting field such as ours, to take important information to his grave with him. But you also need to get past whatever personal animosity you must bear for me and/or my work, done a quarter of a century ago. I no longer care about the subject to the extent that I did then, nor your efforts, nor anyone else's, to the point where I want to need to defend myself against unfair attacks, as you have done here. 
  
  But as far as board censoring, I am against that, otherwise you are left with only an un-naturally sterile group of like-minded postings which could very well bore most readers to death.  Conflicts sometimes arise. Unless they are really overly personalized, they add spice to the board (and I say that even though, in this case, it was me who was attacked!).  Allow the human element to be on display. Temper your desire for sterility with forgiveness, which is divine!

enormity

Just so that other readers of the board will not be confused by the use of the word enormity, here is a definition, together with a note on common (mis)use (confusing it with enormousness), from thefreedictionary (other dictionaries have similar entries):

[defn begins]
e·nor·mi·ty  (-norm-t)
n. pl. e·nor·mi·ties
1. The quality of passing all moral bounds; excessive wickedness or outrageousness.

2. A monstrous offense or evil; an outrage.

3. Usage Problem Great size; immensity: "Beyond that, [Russia's] sheer enormity offered a defense against invaders that no European nation enjoyed" (W. Bruce Lincoln).
[French 鮯rmit鬠from Old French, from Latin normits, from normis, unusual, enormous; see enormous.]

Usage Note: Enormity is frequently used to refer simply to the property of being great in size or extent, but many would prefer that enormousness (or a synonym such as immensity) be used for this general sense and that enormity be limited to situations that demand a negative moral judgment, as in Not until the war ended and journalists were able to enter Cambodia did the world really become aware of the enormity of Pol Pot's oppression.

Fifty-nine percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of enormity as a synonym for immensity in the sentence At that point the engineers sat down to design an entirely new viaduct, apparently undaunted by the enormity of their task. This distinction between enormity and enormousness has not always existed historically, but nowadays many observe it. Writers who ignore the distinction, as in the enormity of the President's election victory or the enormity of her inheritance, may find that their words have cast unintended aspersions or evoked unexpected laughter.
[defn ends]

Laughter, in my case.

Richard, I appreciate your post. I come to the board to share, learn and discuss. It is always disappointing to have it devolve into what most of this past weekend became. When you are cleaning up, maybe the items I contributed should be removed as they do nothing to advance the knowledge base of the definition of enormity, copyright issues, or the advancement of prior bodies of research. It is interesting in that no one would think to insult Nissen's work on plating the Penny Black from the 1920s even though much more has been learned since its publication. Research is always, and will always be, a snapshot in time that is always vulnerable to new data and examples. It's not a bad thing. If the internet had not been invented, most of us would see a fraction of the material that we do and communication would actually involve pen, paper, and a stamp. Andrew

Board Decorum

Please -  I would very much appreciate it if those members who even think they may have pushed the envelope on what may be construed as being civil to their fellow philatelists, go back and edit out the offense comments in their posts. Self police, please.
 
Thank you in advance. Failing that, I will delete many of the the weekend posts myself.

Bill Weiss

In keeping the subject  philatelic I will answer those relevant points. First, all men are created equal when it comes to digging up records. There is no advantage or disadvantage to either person, we just start and stop in certain places till we are satisfied. 

Second, all the resources where available at the time of your publication. The copyright listed in your book is 1990, so I make  reference to such. Some of the key books purchased outside of libraries have copyrights earlier then the 1980s. The post office records, newspapers are all available on microfilm. The libraries, museums, and institutions of public learning were all available to you. Almost all of these resources are East Coast-based. 

Finally I give all the credit to Nicholas Kirke.  His enthusiasm for the NYFM’s was  contagious. I befriended him at TAOS and have shared with him never looking back at what I freely gave. He made it his own. I spent six months alone figuring out via New Orleans and share that information with Nick. His many questions brought to the forefront of my mind the NYFM’s. In the course of my varied research one day the dots were connected.

re: the price of publishing ....

Morning Richard and all,

Philatelic publishing is like being a modern school artist.  Once the creator is dead and no more works are being created -  others get richer than the originator of the work reselling a limited item. 

There is a problem with publishing new info increasing the interest of others in what has up to then been common material.   Case in point my early research and notes on 1549a registered material.   At the Louisville show in January a dealer/member of this board had four nice examples of these labels on Columbus, Ohio covers headed over the pond.   His price was five times what I had purchased three better examples at eight years ago before publizing my efforts.

Yep, I am setting on some info while looking for material to prove a couple more "theroies" that will hopefully add to our understanding of registered mail.  Call it the economics of discovery ....

Best regards,  Russ Ryle

PS:  Richard, looks like the philately of personality is searching for a new home now that their old haunts are going away ....

NYFM Research

I have urged Stephen to publish in print several times (on various subjects). I look forward to seeing what he has uncovered. 

I think nothing is served by comments posted here in reaction to what I regard as a simple "teaser" as employed by many authors.

John and Gordon,

It would be a blessing if Stephen Tedesco had something interesting to say for a change. What he actually wrote was that he has withheld publishing it, that he regards that as virtuous, and — in a textbook example of transference — declared that Bill Weiss is or will be embittered about what he has yet to disclose.

It's nothing to me whether or not Stephen does or does not share his findings, or when, or whether they eventually merit his boasts. But virtuous philatelic scholarship follows a different course from his.

In contrast to his vacuous posts, David D' provided clear useful information on the NYFM subject, which enriches all of us. (And illustrated how easy it was for Michel Zareski to make his fake NYFMs.)