Message Board

Distance measuring in 1849

Gordon,

Re yours: Posted Jul 30, 10 15:26.  It doesn't matter what you think the distance was.  It doesn't matter what Google maps thinks the distance is.  It only matters what the Post Office Department published in their PL&Rs.  They published the distance from Post Office to Post Office along the Mail Route No.1 and this is what was used by Post Office employees to determine rates.  The table used says that the Philadelphia Post Office is 137 miles from Washington and that the Providence Post Office is 399 miles from Washingon making the total distance used for rate purposes between Philadelphia and Providence as 262 miles.  I don't know what they used to determine the distance from Providence to Bristol but they had maps and I suspect your 16 miles is good enough making a total of 278 Post Office miles for the letter.  I would expect that most of the Distributing Post Offices had already determined what post offices were on both sides of the borderline of 300 miles from their office and therefore were subject to the rate change.

Here's another example of the use of the table.  If the letter was from Washington to Raleigh, North Carolina, the mileage would be as follows:  Mail Route No. 2 to Junction near Hicksford, Virginia, 197 miles and then on Branch No. 10 from Mail Route No. 2 to Raleigh 107 miles for a total of 304 miles.  Such mail would be charged the >300 mile rate.  But Google maps says that this distance today is 262 miles via I-85 and I-95.  The difference was that mail followed the Mail Routes and not the shortest distance.

Circular ?

Harvey M - The bottom line is that it was SENT as a letter, not as a circular. Doesn't say circular on the front, etc., etc., etc - I do not wish to get into a debate.

Harvey, since it is less than 300 miles not really an over payment of a circular since it is also a correct payment of a letter under 300 miles. 

I tend to agree that the writing on the top was not what makes it a letter.  That would make not seem to be some information relating to the circular but on the other hand it is hard to say who wrote it and why.  Does not look like docketing. 

What we need to find is an over 300 mile circular with a five cent stamp.  Then it is either an under paid letter (very very rare) or an overpaid circular (very very rare) in the 1847 period.

The only 1847 stamped printed matter I am aware of is the auction catalog that was in Ron Cipolla's collection. That piece was 1.6 oz and the stamp overpaid the 3 1/2 cent printed matter rate.  If treated as a letter it would have been under paid by 15 cents.

Overpaid Circular Rate

Richard, thank you for getting that image up for me.
I believe that I do have other items addressed to Prosser - will check and let u know.
Aside from "709," why do you not consider this to not be a circular use of the 1847 5-cent adhesive?

1847 Circular

Harvey - Suffice it to say that I still haven't seen what I consider to be circular use of the 5c 1847 stamp.

By the way, that Prosser correspondence is immense. Can you show me another example with a docket number?

Chip, thanks for the advice ... back then it was more likely "beer for the horses, whiskey for the riders".

Harvey image not coming up?

Overpaid Circular Rate

This is a scan of a printed circular sent from Albany to New York City, November 1, 1849. The circular is a single page, and  was sent pre-paid and unsealed. There is no manuscript writing on it (except for "709" at the top, which is obviously a docketing code).
Aside from the fact that we have not seen another example of an 1847 overpaid circular rate and, therefore, do not think that it is likely to have happened, is there any evidence-based reason to doubt that this is not an overpaid circular rate?
And, to answer the next question: maybe it was a simple mistake; or maybe the Post Office was already closed and the sender wished to get the circular out that night because he was leaving town; or maybe - as happens today - the sender wanted the addressee to think it was a letter and, therefore, give it more attention than a circular might get. 
Opinions?

Philadelphia to Bristol, RI

While it wasn't an issue in 1848, if you follow the route today, be sure to stop for gas in NJ before crossing the GWB.  Much cheaper than in NY or CT.  Also, you can get Nathan's franks at the rest stops on the NJ Turnpike.
C.

Jim,

Thanks for the info re: route.  So I would figure this to be 95 miles Philadelphia to NYC, 185 to Providence and 16 to Bristol for a total of 293 or so ... thus under 300 miles. 

re: big image
sorry for big image ... will try to reduce before posting.  I tend to scan at higher resolutions so small parts of images can be blown up. 

Images

Jim -

I guess I skipped a point, but you made mine showing how the reduction from 1.3MB to 99kb does not lose the message or question.

This issue is a real problem when people send photographs attached to emails. Huge files !

Roger

Image Size

Now here is the same image reduced to 99kb (same pixels) using IrfanView's 60 reduction factor.

Image size

Roger,

Monitor image size is dependent upon the dimension of the image in pixels not on bytes.  Fewer bytes as a result of compression only mean less resolution and faster transmission speed.  Gordon's image is 2758x3621 pixels.  Here it is after cutting it to one fourth the size in IrfanView (689x905 pixels - it was also reduced to 550kb vs 1399kb).  I think you find that it fits without overflowing your monitor.

Image size

It is interesting to me to see the sizes of some images such as Gordon's when posted here. It is so large, 1.4MB, I must drag the image off the page, then open it in my image application, which then reduces it to 26% so the full page will fit on my 22" screen. Robert writes he reduces his images to 350 -500kb for posting.

These are really very large images for online chat boards. Paul's envelope is 136kb, and my Swiss letter (front and back) is 44kb. Might I suggest that images be reduced for full covers, and details be shown in larger scale only when specific questions require close ups. Examples of under 100kb images can be seen by scrolling down the eBay Chat if anyone is concerned that not enough detail will show. I think the point to remember is that screens have a much lower resolutions than scanners and file sizes can be reduced to 25% original by saving at 80% "quality". As an example the Swiss card below sent at the pre-UPU letter rate to France was scanned at 96dpi and saved at 80% quality. The result is a slightly larger than life image at 59kb.

Roger

Mail From Philadelphia to Bristol, Rhode Island in 1849

Gordon,

Distributing Post Offices in 1847 provides the Rule of Distribution for mail in 1847 and in all likelihood it remained the same in 1849.  Since Bristol is on the east side of Narragansett Bay about 15 mile SE of Providence, it would have been considered beyond Providence so Providence was the destination DPO.  Distribution beyond the DPO was generally managed by the DPO through contracts with people who delivered the mail along a network of local routes. 

Your letter would have gone from Philadelphia to New York City to Providence along Mail Route No.1 in a bundle marked 'Providence, Rhode Island D.P.O.'  It would probably go in a bag marked for New York City where the mail would receive a secondary distribution and grouped with other mail for 'Providence, Rhode Island D.P.O.'   On arrival at Providence it would be resorted to prepare the local route which went to Bristol.  It was probably an overland route although its location on the bay may have made boat service practical.

Richard,

Certainly if the distance is less than 300 miles it would not matter one way or another.  Since this is close to or actually over 300 miles it is worth the effort to nail down how the Philidelphia post office viewed the rate and what the actual route would have been in the winter of 1849.

I agree that it is not likely that there are over paid circulars.

Page Scanning

Robert -

You should have an HP function "Device Manager".  When used to initiate a scan you are presented with an outline selected by the software, but all four dimensions are adjustable so that you determine exactly what will appear within the borders of your image.

Recently I have scanned in TIFF format for the improved resolution over JPEG (I admit I am creating 1MB files where they are not always needed) but when I want to post an image to this board I save the file as a JPEG at the highest resolution, which typically yields FV results for about 350 to 500 kB.

Either format can be imported into iPhoto, Photoshop, etc. for color balancing.

Printed Matter?

Gordon - Although I am sure I am not the person you are asking ... that item was subject to 5c letter postage rate. 

Many before have claimed that they have examples of a 5c 1847 overpaying the circular rate - I have never seen an example of that. I have seen some that are printed plus handwriting like yours as well as one that probably had an attached letter torn away but none that I thought were overpaid.

on the scanning question .... this is a "feature" that allows one scan to get many photos!  I usually scan pages as documents vs. photos because I think the white in the page comes out better and this seems to keep my software from selecting individual pictures.  Also as someone said selecting the size to full page should work.

Geoff,

Thanks for the reference to p16284.  That is actually the cover that prompted my question!  This is an unsealed circular that has some "proforma" data filled in.  So by the rules it would require 5 cent postage.  I have seen circulars with what appears to be proforma data (I assume filled in the sameon a large number of them) and the circular accepted as a circular.  There is no personal information included.  The point in this situation is that the circular rate of 3 cents would have be adequate for over 300 miles but not a 5 cent letter rate.  So... since this is right at the 300 mile distance I am looking for other correspondence going between the cities. Maybe our printed matter expert would have an opinion.

re: Scanning stamps using jpeg

Hi Robert,

I am not familiar with your software, but ... There should be a setting in your software that defines the size of the area you wish to scan.  This needs to be set to 8.5 x 11.0 for a standard page (or to your page size).   Also, look in your scanner software for a size setting.

I use an HP 4600 series flat [picture frame style] scanner and have no problems with up to a 1200 dpi page size image but it does make a b-i-g file.  Usually scan at 300 dpi. 

Hope that helps.

Best regards,

Russ Ryle

Path to Philadelphia Exchange Office

I have just uploaded the John Barwis five frame exhibit as above titled. PDF file is here - HTML visual linked from exhibits page.

Philadelphia to Bristol RI Dec 22, 1849

PM # 16284 listed as cira 1847, is shown in Siegel sale 813 as "Philadelphia Pa. Dec. 22" cds on printed folded circular from the Delaware Coal Company to Bristol R.I., datelined 1849", Coggeshall correspondence, as Richard stated.

Samoa book

Matthew - yes I know. The print run was 500 and it sold out very quickly. The book is difficult to obtain on the second hand market, but I'll keep trying!

Scanning stamps using jpeg

I'm looking to scan pages with multiple images using HP Photosmart Studio. When I scan the images to jpeg it scans each image individually. How can I set it, so it only scans the entire page instead of each image individually?

Thank you,

RB

Distances for puposes of rating

Gordon,

Distances were measured along the established Mail Routes.  The PO published distances from post office to post office and provided tables of distances.  The Postal Laws and Regulations of the United States of America 1847 (republished by Theron Weirenga in 1980) included the table used.  Mail Route No. 1 went from Washington, D.C. to Augusta, Maine via Philadelphia and Providence (both distributing post offices).  Philadelphia was 137 miles along the route from Washington and Providence was 399 miles for a distance of 262 miles.  Bristol would have been only a relatively short distance from Providence therefore it was well within the 300 mile breakpoint for Philadelphia rates.  No branch routes are noted for Rhode Island.

Thanks Richard.  Appreciated.

Distance

Gordon - Should be a 5c rate as under 300 miles. There are a couple Coggeshall correspondence covers from Philly to Bristol at 5c and several 5c uses between Philly and Providence (equivalent to distance between Bristol and Philly).

Bristol RI to Philadelphia

Does anyone have information (maybe a cover) showing the distance between Bristol RI and Philadelphia that the postoffice considered for the purpose of assessing postage prior to July 1851.   Very specifically Dec 1849.  Google maps has the route by car at about 300 miles.

Thanks in advance ....

NESBITT ENVELOPE WITH PRICELIST

Thanks to all for your input.  

Paul

Stamped Envelope

Paul,

Although the condition is shabby, that's an important piece of U.S. postal history, distributed to post offices as a marketing tool, the very first time that special request corner cards were offered to customers. Congress created this option in 1864 because the Dead Letter Office was glutted with undeliverable mail without any sender's information. So the POD was instructed to print return addresses on stamped envelopes at cost, and in quantities small enough to entice widespread acceptance. Private printers were furious, but the experiment worked and has been with us ever since. Yours is the generic example. The best one has George Nesbitt's company name and address in the imprint.

RE: STAMPED ENVELOPE PRICES C 1865

Item is a post office buyer's sample.  This would have been on display in a post office lobby, usually with other sizes, colors, and denominations of stamped envelopes.  Prices printed on the envelope were the prices that the public paid to the post office for the size, style, color, value etc per unit quantity.  No incentive for 10,000 units because no one was buying that many envelopes at one time in 1865.  These should have been prepared by the envelope contractor and supplied through the POD distribution system to various post offices.  There may or may not have been distribution of individual sample envelopes.

Birth of the USPCS Web Chronicle

July 29, 2010...The U.S. Philatelic Classics Society (USPCS) is pleased to announce the launching of its Web Chronicle! This is one of the most exciting membership benefits ever developed by the society for its members. Any member can now search on ANY WORD, in all articles, editorials, book reviews, obituaries, classified and regular advertisements throughout 224 issues published between 1948 through 2009. The already published 2010 Chronicle Issues will be added over the next several weeks. "Nearly 14,000 pages of The Chronicle are now readable and fully searchable on our web site, as a benefit of membership. We have pioneered what we believe to be the way of the future, in digitizing philatelic content and integrating it onto a web site for viewing" exclaimed USPCS President Wade Saadi at the recent completion of this project. "There are no CDs or DVDs to buy; membership is the only requirement to access this incredible research, technical and exciting U.S. philatelic resource," Saadi continued. All it takes to enjoy this tremendous philatelic resource is membership in the USPCS. Go to www.uspcs.org to join online.

The USPCS would like to thank those members who gave generously to this endeavor, for their financial and logistical support of this important project.

About the U.S. Philatelic Classics Society

The U. S. Philatelic Classics Society (USPCS) is a not-for-profit association of people interested in the pre-1894 stamps and postal history of the United States. Our goal is to promote interest and knowledge of philately through the encouragement of philatelic research, and through exchange of information among our members as well with other philatelic organizations. We do this by preparing and distributing philatelic literature and periodicals, particularly The Chronicle of the U. S. Classic Postal Issues and the Chairman's Chatter. We are operated entirely by volunteers, and welcome anyone interested in the "classic era" of American philately.

For media inquiries, please contact:

Wade E. Saadi
President, USPCS
wade@pencom.com

or

Alexander Haimann
Publicist, USPCS
bretalex1@aol.com

Nesbitt Die 26 envelope prices

Paul B.

I would have thought that the postal stationary envelope you show is simply a Nesbitt price card for that envelope, 3 cents going to the Post Office Department and the difference per envelope at each of the price breaks going to Nesbitt. That is 15 cents on 25, 60 cents on a 100 and $6 on a 1000. 

What surprises me is that they did not give an incentive to order a 1000 over the price they asked for 100. Does not strike me as being particularly commercially minded.

Samoa Book

John,
You really need to get your hands on the Samoa book Bob published.  It had a complete census of Express covers (including questionable items) and the mixed franking covers.  I presume the 1970s articles are outdated by the book.

Samoa publications

John B and Harvey - thank you for the responses. (Yes it was CCP).

Samoa Pubs

John S

The series of papers to which you refer were published in The Collectors Club Philatelist from January 1975 to July 1978.

Samoa

John S

Bob did not publish his Samoa papers in The Chronicle of the U.S. Classic Postal Issues.

Perhaps the LP or Collectors Club Philatelist?

I will contact Bob and ask him to drop you a line.

John Shepherd

check your e-mail

STAMPED ENVELOPE PRICES C 1865

Hi,

   Can someone tell me the origin of this item with prices, i.e., printed by the POD, a local postmaster, prepared privately, or whatever?  Thanks.

Paul

Samoa - The Chronicle

Robert Odenweller authored a series of four articles on Samoa postal history, including a cover census, in The Chronicle (1978).

Can anyone assist me with copies of the articles, or originals of these issues to buy?

Many Thanks

Safari

Richard -

Thanks for the assistance when I need it. I guess Safari being the Apple browser and having used an Apple since 1986, I'm loath to use other browsers. I used Firefox once until it required upgrading beyond my computer system, then I went back to Safari and now have the most up to date Safari version which works so well for most (99.5%) of the web. I work with images a lot and I can't imagine using another type of computer. It is so easy and accurate. I may be buying a new Mac in the near future, so the current issue may disappear.

On a philatelic note I received this 1868 FL this week. It shows three of the first Güller rotating date wheel cancelers. They are identified by the old style font, which was considered not acceptable and changed almost immediately to the sans serif fonts for all years following. These devices along with another 56 were around for only two-three years. These are Aarburg, Geneve A, and Geneve-Sion ambulant.

Roger

Safari

Phil R - Thank you for identifying the cause of the problem.

I can't program for all the variations that people use. Safari seems to be problematic in other situations as well.

Roger H - If you insist on using Safari, I will correct any long URLs you dump on the board.

Macintosh Problem

I think it's a problem with the Safari browser.

I'm on a Mac. With Firefox, the message window appears as Richard posted. With Safari, it appears without the bold, italic, etc. options.

I posted this from Firefox.

Phil

Get a Computer!

Roger - Seriously, I don't understand. Steve Crippe sent me a screen capture from a MAC and it looks just like mine. Browser problem, or difference ????

Links

Richard - There is no menu of icons for the B, I, or link. I can't produce bold or italic in a post.

Also, what I see below the Message Box after "Upload new image" is a "Choose File" button, which when clicked opens a dialogue box allowing me to search my computer for the image I wish to post. There is no box to paste a URL or image file name, or whatever is to go in that box. Immediately after the Choose File button is the text "no file selected". This disappears when I select a file and a tiny thumbnail appears prior to posting. It is strange that when I come back to edit a post, the paragraph code Html receives an additional space between the p and the backslash, which if not corrected during the editing, doesn't produce the paragraph spacing. This is the fourth edit trying to make it error free.

Roger

Hyperlinks

Roger - I see this on IE (black box added around hyperlink button) - is this not what you see?

Re: Posting Links

Richard -

That option is not available for those of us using Macs. All I get on the Post a New Message page is a Subject box and just below it a Message box. Below that is the Optional Image and Choose File button. Then "Post Message". Plus I must use "br" and "p" for my line and paragraph breaks.

Roger

NYPO Notice

Thanks to John Olenkiewicz (which confirms Nov 28, 1783 date):

Links on the Board

Please do not cut and paste URLs directly on the board but instead use the link button when composing a message. Highlight the word you wish to have the hyperlink on, and then paste the URL in space provided instead. Thank you.

NYPO

Geoff D - Thank you. I read that as equivalent to November 28th but certainly ambiguous.