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Posted Dec 4, 16 6:53 by tony gade (holstein*2007)

DWI-Virgin Islands transfer period


Thanks for your reply. You are welcome to give him my email address if he should want to see my collection - swap or sell.

[email protected]

Posted Dec 3, 16 22:36 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)


The problem, and it is a massive one, is that if you try to get your rights, you are liable to end up with a huge bill and not much to show for it.

Posted Dec 3, 16 21:42 by John Barwis (jbarwis)


Two people, two opinions. Be grateful we live somewhere that is possible; I lived in places where it was not.

Posted Dec 3, 16 21:37 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

Tabeart text

  These guys went way beyond fair use.  I exchanged emails with Tabeart (a judge told me his book showed my Downstreaming exhibit was wrong --  but the judge was sending me on a wild goose chase) and he sounded quite bitter about the matter.

Posted Dec 3, 16 20:14 by Richard Matta (rkmatta)

Macy's NYC has found a use for discount postage

All stamps and postal stationery are genuine going back 40-60 years


Posted Dec 3, 16 17:47 by John Barwis (jbarwis)

Oliver & Tanner


"Theft" is a bit strong, inasmuch as the authors plainly state that their work is a revision of Tabeart's book.

In any case, there is no reason to use their version, because Colin published a revised edition of his rates book in 2011.

Was "Robertson Revisited" a theft of Robertson's work? Not at all, because Colin changed the original format and added new data and corrections. A 2016 update is available now.

Posted Dec 3, 16 17:30 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

Oliver and Tanner 2006

My understanding is the socalled effort by Oliver and Tanner is based on the outright theft of Tabeart's book.

Posted Dec 3, 16 16:53 by John Barwis (jbarwis)


from the Morning Post (London), Sat. 22 Nov 1806:

The "Charger" gun-brig, Lieut. POWELL, arrived at Torbay the 17th November; sailed from Bengal the 4th July; touched at the Cape, from whence she sailed the 18th Sept. direct for England.

The following ships were in Bengal, and were to be dispatched for England the beginning of August: Phoenix, RAMSDEN; Tigris, GRAHAM; Picton, MACKESON; Sarah Christiana, MASON; Diana, BECKFORD; Glory, BEEVER; Union, YOUNG; Northampton, BARKER.

The Calcutta, Capt. REDDIE, was in dock at Bengal on the 1st of Jul., to repair.

Another article in the newspaper noted that mail from India was delivered in London on 21 November, the date of your London postmark.

I found no record of a ship from Calcutta having arrived at London or any other British port during the week before your letter was postmarked.

Posted Dec 3, 16 15:28 by Ravi Vora (nusivar)

UK Inland and Overseas Letter Rates By Oliver & Tanner, 2006

A fellow India postal historian recently shared with me above publication that I thought may interest board participants:

I found it very helpful as I was researching rates for an 1806 letter from Danish Settlement in India to Cornwall, England (See attached). I am still working on finding what ship this letter was sent from Calcutta to England and to which English port.


Posted Dec 3, 16 13:04 by Gregory Shoults (coilcollector)

Forwarded from a US Territory to a UPU Destination

This item made it all the way around the world and back to the original sender. It was first sent to the Philippine Islands, then was forwarded to Italy and assessed postage due, and finally returned to sender and assessed another six cents in postage due.


Posted Dec 3, 16 12:59 by Gregory Shoults (coilcollector)

Treaty Rate to England / War Rate

Here is another example of the treaty rate to England during the war and then being forwarded. This time the letter only needed the equivalent of 2 additional cents to make up the UPU rate.


Posted Dec 3, 16 12:53 by Gregory Shoults (coilcollector)

Treaty Rate to England

Here is a similar example, but with a coil from the 1910 issue.


Posted Dec 3, 16 12:13 by David D'Alessandris (davidd)

American Nazi Party

I found the discussion of the German American Bund interesting due to the fact that the head of the American Nazi Party, George Rockwell, once lived just around the corner from my current home in Arlington, Virginia (Chief Justice Burger lived a block away in a different direction).  I had never heard of the ANP until after moving to the neighborhood and later learned the that park where my daughters took swimming lessons was the former site of the ANP "storm trooper barracks" and that he was assassinated in the parking lot of a nearby strip mall.    More info here

Posted Dec 3, 16 11:48 by Mike Ludeman (mml1942)

Treaty Rate

The US-UK Treaty rate was effective October 1, 1908 per Ken's post. It ended on Aug 31, 1931.

I suspect that each date could be easily confirmed by searching the Postal Bulletin on-line as that is where I believe I found the dates.

There was a similar US-Germany treaty rate of 2 cents, established Jan 1, 1909, but ended earlier on Feb 4, 1915. This latter date is in Postal Bulletin 10656.

Posted Dec 3, 16 11:17 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Treaty Rate

The US-UK treaty was effective October 1, 1908, providing for surface letter postage to each other at the domestic letter rates.

Posted Dec 3, 16 11:12 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

DWI-Virgin Islands transition


About 20 years ago I purchased the largest extant collection of transition period postal history for a client, who still owns it. To the best of my knowledge he has no plan to part with it or to exhibit it.

The 12¢ stamp was issued to pay the rate your cover illustrates: 2¢ domestic single letter postage plus 10¢ registry fee. It is not scarce, but the Virgin Islands origin during the transition period adds a premium to its value. In Europe it's probably easier to find the 15¢ combination, 5¢ UPU letter plus 10¢ registry.

Posted Dec 3, 16 10:29 by John Wilson (vladivohaken)

German American Bund

Mention of America First lets me show a press photograph of Lindbergh at one of their rallies. Whilst Lindbergh (despite his Nazi leanings) may have been simply acknowledging the applause, take a look at the guy with the all-out Nazi salute under Lindbergh's right arm....! John W.


Posted Dec 3, 16 10:08 by tony gade (holstein*2007)

US 12 cents - Postmark St.Thomas 30 April 1917

Ken Lawrence   - Thank you for your information about us 12 cents. You're right - I can now see after I have received my letter the perf. is 10 as you describe. 12 cents letters sent in the transfer period is probably not quite common. Others who have information about letters in the transfer period?


Posted Dec 3, 16 9:44 by Ray Porter (rporter314)

Direct Steamer Rate

I did not find anything in the 1892 Postal Guide. When was this treaty written? Could anyone provide a source? If not, what were the rates for the different classes of mail?

Posted Dec 2, 16 23:16 by steven frumkin (sfrumkin)

German American Bund

In 1953, my parents were among a small group of families that established a synagogue in North Bellmore, Long Island. For this purpose, they bought a small stucco-construction building, probably built around 1930, which had been a neighborhood bar that had gone out of business. In the process of cleaning out the basement, a box of German American Bund uniforms was discovered. I shouldn't be surprised if these had been stored there since the group was supressed, and maybe even forgotten over the years.

It's safe to say that most people living in the New York area in 1939-1941 were aware of the Bund's existence, due to its rallies and parades, just as they would have been aware of the America First Isolationist movement. Therefore, I wouldn't be at all surprised if rumors that places like Bellmore's Bavarian Village had patrons who were sympathetic to the Nazis may well have been nothing more than rumors, with no basis in fact. One of my 'favorite' statistics relating to the Second World War is that 30% of US military personnel in the European Theatre were of German descent.

By the way, Yaphank figures prominently in the 1943 movie 'This Is The Army' which includes several scenes that haven't stood the test of time but are an interesing glimpse of wartime America for that very reason. Numerous songs, all by Irving Berlin, including one very rousing number performed by a few hundred servicemen about how they're heading overseas to finish the job that should've been finished back in 1918: 'This Time is the Last Time' whose refrain ends with the line: so we won't have to do it again.

P.S. Although Yaphank still has its own train station, it's on a different line than the one that will take you to Fred Schmitt.

Posted Dec 2, 16 19:08 by Roger Heath (decoppet)

Treaty rate to England

Dave - Thanks a lot.
Didn't know that rate. I purchased it purely for it's destination of Hotel Byron, to go along with this forwarded cover to the same hotel in 1865.


Posted Dec 2, 16 18:08 by Dave Savadge (nomad55)

Treaty rate to England

Roger - your cover was properly paid for the 2-Cent treaty rate, often termed the Direct Steamer Rate, to England. Forwarding to another UPU country meant that the difference in postage (3 cents) had to be paid.

Thats why the one and one half pence stamp was added. It's equivalent to the 3 cents needed for forwarding.

Here's another such cover, forwarded from England to Germany.


Posted Dec 2, 16 17:10 by Roger Heath (decoppet)

1912 - 2 cents to UK, forwarded to Switzerland

Can anyone tell me why this letter could be mailed for 2 cents, then forwarded for 1 1/2d to Switzerland?

Wasn't the standard international rate 5 cents, and it could have been forwarded without the additional postage, though the rate from the UK to Switzerland would have been 2 1/2d.

It appear to have been sealed, so not printed matter rate.


Posted Dec 1, 16 17:27 by Charles E. Cwiakala ([email protected])

December 2016 Philatelic Auction Calendar ...

The December 2016 editions of the Philatelic Auction Calendar [42 worldwide sales] and Auctioneers Announcements are available on our website:

Chuck Cwiakala

Posted Dec 1, 16 17:14 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

Jack Pemberton -- Rest in Peace

I just learned that John Pemberton, of Amherst, Mass. has died.  He collected Amherst and early steam packet mails (at one time he had a number of other western Mass towns, including Northampton).   He was a professor and expert on sub Saharan African art.  A man of great intelligence and charm. 

Posted Dec 1, 16 14:57 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

12¢ Franklin

U.S. stamps were shipped to the Virgin Islands for use immediately upon the U.S. purchase from Denmark, although DWI stamps also remained valid as postage for six months. The stamps that were current at that time are on unwatermarked paper and have gauge 10 perforations, in this case Scott 474 issued in October 1916. There are no rare or expensive varieties. Earlier 12¢ Frankins were gauge 12 and gauge 10 on single-line watermarked paper, both issued in 1914. the final version was perforated gauge 11, issued May 1917.

Posted Dec 1, 16 14:50 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

L.I. Bund

Very intereting.  Also that the League apparently kept its ethnic identity til this year.  I wonder how many other interesting organizations were shooting under NRA aegis in the good old days.

Posted Dec 1, 16 14:45 by tony gade (holstein*2007)

US 12 cents - Postmark St.Thomas 30 April 1917

Are there any - who can help with the following Q - when the first 12 cents was released and the perf. these 12 cents should have to be the expensive version?


Posted Dec 1, 16 14:42 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Bund, etc.

For a contemporaneous account on Nazi activities in the United States read Under Cover by John Roy Carlson, who infiltrated them and wrote a best-seller about them. The book includes his photographs, one of which documented the joint meeting of the Bund and the Ku Klux Klan that Fritz Kuhn had organized. The exposure embarrassed the KKK, which hastened to declare its patriotism.

Posted Dec 1, 16 13:00 by Scott Trepel (strepel)

Bund on Long Island

The pro-Nazi German-American Bund on Long Island is well-documented. Camp Seigfried was a summer place for little brownshirts and their families. Fritz Kuhn was the leader and ran pro-Nazi rallies. There was even an Adolf Hitler Street in Yaphank (subsequently renamed).

The whole thing ended wiith the start of the war, and Kuhn went to prison, as I recall. Yet, even today, reverberations affect residents. Here is an interesting contemporary news article.

Posted Nov 30, 16 21:36 by Farley Katz (navalon)

Tacoma precancel

Doug -

S. M. Schoemann wrote a column on precancels for Everybody's Philatelist in 1913. 

Search "Schoemann"

Posted Nov 30, 16 21:12 by steven frumkin (sfrumkin)

Long Island in Second World War

Scott T:

You don't actually collect Long Island during this period, do you? If so, 'google' this:

Bavarian Village Bellmore

Open the first link on the list that comes up and scroll down to the title: 'Rumor?'

If I misunderstood and you don't do this gegraphical area and period, you get a pass. Otherwise, there may be an advertising cover out there for you to look for. If so, as Jane says to Tarzan in the old joke: Go to town.

Posted Nov 30, 16 20:29 by Scott Trepel (strepel)


I've been accused of hyping other people's covers my whole life. Why should I change my strategy.

This one is metered, so even Cal Hahn would have liked it.

Posted Nov 30, 16 18:06 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

Long Island saboteurs

Besides, Dasch wasn't caurght he  turned himself in lickety-split.  Scott, you don't own the cover yet and you are already hyping i! 

Posted Nov 30, 16 18:01 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

Long Island Lust

Scott -- and you would be right!  Of course I do sympathize with your plight, however misguided it might be.

Posted Nov 30, 16 17:02 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Postal history

Note that the cover was not sent by a prisoner-of-war, nor examined by a POW censor. POW mail was free. POW censors were Examiners No. 101-1000, 1112-1150, 10607-11846, and 12057-12994. It was prepaid 3¢, the domestic letter rate, thus shortpaid rated 20 centimes = 2 pence postage due, not collected, marked ADDRESSEE LEFT BERMUDA and Return to Sender.

Posted Nov 30, 16 16:52 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)



They probably did deliver her letters as long as she was interned there. Part of the deal with Dasch was that she was released to live freely in the United States. That letter probably arrived at Bermuda after she had departed.

Posted Nov 30, 16 16:10 by Scott Trepel (strepel)

Long Island Lust

Bernard B:

When Nazi saboteurs hop off a U-boat land in the center of Jamacia Plain, get caught, and one of the POW covers is found, I will tell you it's not Jamaica Plain postal history.

Posted Nov 30, 16 15:57 by Bernard Biales (bernard b)

But what about the postal history?

So why wouldn't the Brits deliver the letter? And then what happened to it, both at the time and later? Scott --- it is not Long Island postal history -- how can you possibly justify your lust?

Posted Nov 30, 16 15:49 by Scott Trepel (strepel)

Dasch Cover

Now find it and sell it to me!

Posted Nov 30, 16 14:13 by Ken Lawrence (kenlawrence)

Fred Schmitt's fabulous WW2 cover

George John Dasch wrote to his wife from the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary. The book Betrayal says he was allowed to send her one letter per week, written under supervision to make sure he did not write to anyone else. Which means more covers might still exist. 

At the time Operation Pastorius began, she was interned at Bermuda, having been a passenger on a ship intercepted by the British Navy. She was released to reside in the United States, probably about the time this letter was in transit.


Posted Nov 30, 16 11:46 by Douglas Chapman (foodrev)

Tacoma Pre-cancel

Thanks to Mike and Michael for the info.

This cover also seems to be sent to a St. Louis philately dealer. There is a label affixed to the back: "Saw your Ad. in Everybody's Philatelist/The Paper For Everybody.

S M Schoemann (Scholman?) is the addressee

Posted Nov 30, 16 10:57 by Andrew Reid (andrewukusa1847)

Barred Numeral 12

Also a warm welcome to Andrew Chappell, who along with his late father Geoffrey helped supply my developing interests in GB Destination mails. There were at least a cover of two in my PDR exhibit that originated with them. There are very few people that can reliably plate copies of the GB 1841 1d Red and Andrew is one of them!

Posted Nov 30, 16 6:38 by Michael Gutman (mikeg94)

Tacoma Precancel

Precancels are known from a small number of towns on F-1. This Tacoma precancel is PSS style L-1 and is a mimeo. The F-1 with this precancel is listed in Burnells catalog of printed precancels. It is therefore known but I suspect not common.

Posted Nov 30, 16 2:38 by Andrew Chappell (qvpennies)

Barred numeral 12

Thanks to all who responded and hello again Richard. Very helpful. Best wishes, Andrew

Posted Nov 29, 16 22:11 by Mike Ellingson (mikeellingson)

Tacoma precancel

Tacoma did use several locally produced precancels that closely resemble the one that you posted.  They are listed in the PSS Town & Type Catalog.  I think there are a couple of precancel guys that post once in a while that could probably help out more, insofar as a use on the F1 is concerned.  I'm thinking C Adrion or Mike G?
Mike E.

Posted Nov 29, 16 22:03 by Douglas Chapman (foodrev)

Hand Made Pre-cancel?

Just wanted to find out if anyone has seen this cancel on an F1 before. I find no-one who has ever seen or heard of an F1 pre-cancel and I have not been able to find reference to one. It also looks a bit like Courier (typewriter) font.

Any ideas?

Thanks as always.


Posted Nov 29, 16 17:49 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Barred Numeral 12

Cover #2
And, Welcome Andrew! Thank you for providing me with some fine Great Britain stamps in years past.


Posted Nov 29, 16 17:49 by Richard Frajola (frajola)

Barred Numeral 12

two covers w/ US Postage Dues


Posted Nov 29, 16 16:49 by Leonard Piszkiewicz (lenp99)

Ellipse cancels


Those cancels were used as paquebot cancels, such as on this cover from Colombia with a block of four Late Fee stamps paying the 10c single letter rate.


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