Message Board

I started collecting when I was 8 years old.  A cousin had started collecting, lost interest and gave me her Scott Album.   My parents got me a 1961 Scott  Volume 1 for Christmas (which I still have), and have never taken a break from collecting.   Collected unused US for about 10 years, and then bought my first stampless cover (a Huntsville negative 5 star) from Alan Atkins at a Memphis show in the early 70s.   That launched my interest in postal history.  The MEMPHEX shows in the 70s were a wonderful training ground with great exhibits of early US and CSA material,as well as dealers with wonderful covers.   Hubert Skinner showed something different every year, and took the time to walk me through his 1 cent 1851 exhibit when he noticed I was staring at all of the 1 cent 1851 covers.  Bill Bauer was showing Colorado covers; Ray Crow exhibited Exposition covers, Billy Matz showed CSA covers; Bedford Joyner exhibited postal cards.   The NOPEX shows in New Orleans were wonderful as well, but it was harder to drive to New Orleans from North Alabama for a weekend show.

Also, as a youngster, I went to an eye doctor in Birmingham (Alabama), and my dad would take me by Acton's Stamp, Coin and Camera shop in downtown Birmingham.  My dad liked their cameras, and I would save my money to buy plate blocks.   I remember that they had covers in the display cases, but I had no interest or understanding in postal history at that time.   Would that I had been able to appreciate the treasures they had for sale.  

I think I started with stamps at around age 6 or 7 -- my father had collected growing up, though he was no longer active when he started my twin brother and I, presumably with a beginner US album and some cheap packets.  I also remember him getting a used set of Scott Catalogs for us, I think from a newspaper classified ad.  I attended my first show in Milwaukee in the early 1980s, and also attended my first APS Stampshow the year it was in Dallas in the 80s (maybe 84 or 85).  I moved up to the Harris Citation album around that same time  I always liked older material better and ultimately focused on pre-1940 worldwide, eventually asking for and receiving the Scott International Volume I in high school in Toledo (where there were also two retail stamp shops at the time). 

I started switching over into covers as a senior in high school, when I found a Granville OH stampless cover not long after applying to Denison.  It was all downhill from there! :)

Expertizing

Bernard,

I do not think of you as given to self-delusion. Maybe if you had received a cert signed J. Randall, Penguin, and R. Shoe, but suspected that CH and RF might also have examined it, you would not have suspended disbelief. Unless you know who all the qualified examiners were, and whether they all agreed, you don't really know what the issuer wants you to believe. 

The other circumstance, putting a name on the certificate of an examiner who opposed the final opinion, is far worse. I leave it to lawyers to say how much worse. But I had reports of that from PSE's dismayed experts, and JRS declined to reveal the worksheets that would have proven whose testimonial was correct.

At least with three-card monte or a shell game, you can see the action with your own eyes if you're quick enough.

My first exposure to the philatelic world

Back in the early 60's it was common that I would spend sunday's with my grandfather
and we would go into NYC for some event and a little bonding.I was all of 6 years of age and we visited the Madison square garden rotunda and I attended my first ASDA show . We walked around a bit and I stopped at Bob driscoll's table and bought my first FDC, a ugly ratty 1926 Norse american issue FDc for 10 cents..
I brought it home and in a age of no computers visited the Library and read books on the stamp story and anything related to that commemorative.
At the time my MOM had started an antique frame business with a girlfriend and advised me that if I wanted to be a collector its best to buy the rare material and not the common stuff. I would deliver newspapers on a route in the neighborhood and saved up all my quarters for almost 12 months.. the next year i went back to the show , catalogue in hand , grandfather dad and mom this time.. in the 60's when you went to NYC on a sunday everyone wore a jacket and tie so i was dressed to the nines for my big day!!
we arrived at the show and i was a small lad who barely reached the height of the table at the booth. i remember Bob driscoll asking ny grandfather, who was a handsome stocky 6'2 man what he collected and what he was interested to purchase.. he retorted that its my grandson who is the expert collector and BOB took one look and passed me the 10-25 cent box.. I immediately looked at him and told him that I had my eye on the one dollar FDC of the 1923 lincoln issue with a perfect bullseye strike and date on the cover.. he looked shocked and asked my grandad
 you know its priced at $50.00 dollars, a huge sum back in the 60's

my grandfather answered: he has it covered and i lifted my jar of quarters and poured them on the table.. i think Bob was in shock and i told him its all there and i bought my first FDC rarity.. he wrote me  a receipt which stated : scott 571 FDC.,.paid with alot of quarters
almost 40 years later i found that receipt and sent it to bob before he passed away..
as an anecdote
i sold that cover for more than 7000.00 dollars at auction..
I was hooked and went back every year and bought one item with my newspaper savings until about 15 when like the rest of us.. sports, girls , movies etc took precedent over philatelic pursuits...

Beginning

I started collecting when I was 11, both because the most thoughtful members of my Scout troop were collectors and because a lot of people in Hyde Park (Chicago) received mail from the old country and saved the stamps for me, so as soon as I got interested, I had more and better stamps that most of my friends, good trading material. I probably had been incubating the hobby for two years by then, because I had kept a first day cover of the first United Nations issue, which my Dad mailed to me from New York on a business trip, canceled on one of his company envelopes.

How I Began Collecting

Almost the same script, different cast of characters.
About age 7, sick in bed, partents gave me some stamps and a couple of years later Santa also contributed stamps plus an album. Pretty tame stuff until my dad, a banker, brought home clippings from the mail, even some foreign. The real turning point was when his customer, Mr. Bliss, hearing I was a collector, dontated a dozen or more huge envelopes full that his elderly uncle filled from an equal number of trunks or boxes full of on- and off-paper material, at that time even 50-80 years old. Can you believe it, I still have a moth-eaten 24c purple Winfield Scott that I prized highly then, and do still today as a reminder of that huge hoard. It was my solitary education, with an old donated Scott catalog, trying to match the stamps with pictures and text.
About 11 or 12 I met Karl Heumann in his tiny, smelly absolutely wonderful shop in Evanston, Ill. He had old covers and I was bitten big time. I found a few from Wisconsin, where we vacationed, thought they were cool and hunted for them much more seriously than the general stamps. With the typical break for college, marriage, child (squeezed into about 5 years) and out of work, I re-discovered it all. With zilch disposable income I plunged in and haven't looked back in 40+ years. Disposable income problem resolved, disposable time still in very short supply.

Standard Oil Cover Ad

Recent pickup at antique store:  Standard Oil ad showing endorsement letters from Columbian expo, circa 1894 as all over cover back..

Collecting is the operative word here

I collected anything.  Being an only child with parents collecting cigarette butts and horserace tickets that was about the only thing I did not collect.  

A young girl in grade 4 brought in her album and I had to start too.  Many friends over the years also picked it up, some into high school but I am probably the only one to keep it up.

First album was a $1.28 from Kresges, and then moved stamps from that album into a Canadiana, and US Liberty.  I saved a buck a week, to buy each then in the same year saved enough for my parents to pick up a set of Standard Albums from the Boston area.  They got a great deal for me at the time saving over half from Canadian prices.  After about 2000 to 3000 in those albums and FDC's and plate blocks, Capex sheets it did not seem to hold the same passion.  Too much wallpaper.

Met a few people from the local club and moved in specializing.

In hind sight, not knowing any serious collectors, did not help, but during rainy days kept an Internetless kid busy.  

I have known dozens of very senior people since the 70's that have passed, just wish I had spent a little more time learning from them.  I had always wanted the large volume International set, eventually traded a friend for it with thousands of stamps in it.  He had traded stuff to get it, and I then promtly had an older friend who really liked international stuff so I did a trade for some covers to China.  9 volumes in hand for less than a month.  We all got what we wanted and that was the main thing.  Later on I was able to find a gentleman in the US who had an item I really wanted for my 1937-38 CDA issue and was able to trade one of those covers for it. 

Although my wife does not collect, I am fortunate to have a fairly free reign in what I do with stamps.

Have always thought it strange that Dealers spend all their time taking collectiions apart and collectors putting them together.

Lars re Certificates

Lars,

re your comment, " I do have a few certificates of US organisations about Luxembourg stamps - I better hold my tongue... ".

no, you shouldn't hold your tongue as that is the problem as these problems are swept under the carpet and rarely discussed.

Luxembourg is a good example why rare stamps should be sent only to the experts of the material and not to a general certification group. The material has to be examined by an expert who has complete knowledge of the complexities that occur in certain issues.  Good examples are the 1859-1880 issues where almost every type of philatelic shenanigans exist, imperf. stamps made from trimmed roulettes and perfs., complete forgeries, forged cancels, cleaned cancels, added margins to imperfs., faked perfs. etc.

Most collectors readily accept certificates without realising that the issuing body is not generally recognised by specialists of the area. 

David B.

Hi, my name is George and I'm a stamp collector

When I was in fourth or fifth grade,  for Christmas I received 'The Transworld' stamp album.  Even though my parents swore they got it for me,  I know in fact that it was actually Santa Claus who provided it for me,  and to this day I don't understand why my folks would bs me like that :)   There were no collectors in my family that I know of,  but my parents were European and there was a constant influx of letters from the old country to our and relative's houses that may have stimulated the purchase (along with giving Jr something to do to keep him out of our hair).  My Dad was also in the hotel business (at that time the GM of the Plaza Hotel in NYC), so he had a constant supply of world-wide mail/stamps.  At the time,  none of my friends collected either,  so I was kind of on my own and ended up being somwhat self-taught (at least up to the level of soaking the stamps off their paper,  and matching the pictures in my new album).

About one year later,  we moved to London.  Right up the street from us was the shoppe of John Lawson at Sloane Square.  After my Dad had enough of me pressing my nose up against John's window,  he took me in and introduced us.  John was a short, bald gent who had no problem teaching the ropes to this young brat,  and my collecting journey started in earnest.  I would spend every free moment sitting at his counter,  pouring through his countless albums and purchasing what I could afford.  I can still almost 'smell' the aroma from his Shimmel-Pennig Vada cigars that he always had lit in his store (ahhh...the good ole days).  I started purchasing more and more albums and stamps as time went on. One Christmas I even bought Mr Lawson a tin of his brand of cigars as a present......he reciprocated by giving me my first Penny Black !

In school,  I discovered a few classmates that also collected,  so we essentially fed off of each other interests,  making multiple weekly excursions to The Strand, etc to frequent the shops and auctions.  As an aside,  one of these collecting buddies was George Eveleth who is now well-known in philatelic dealer circles.

After 6 years we returned to the States and I collected for about another year or so, even keeping in touch with some British mail auctions (like Ormond Stamps), but then college,  girls (especially girls!),  etc eventually got in the way so my albums,   although always on shelves,  were ignored.

About 15 years ago, now living in upstate-ish NY,  I saw an ad in the local paper that said there was a buyer looking for any and all stamp collections.  I called the guy and he came over on a weekend.  As we sat in my kitchen pouring over my albums,  almost every time this guy turned a page,  I saw a stamp that I bought from John Lawson or another friend/dealer,  and nostalgia got its grip around my mind.  I thanked the guy and told him I would 'let him know,'  knowing full well I was about to jump back into the hobby.  I called him and told him I decided to start collecting again,  and to thank him for his time.  He recommended buying a copy of Linn's so I could see what was happening in the philatelic world,  which I did.  So here I am.....fully addicted (and I have Drew Nicholson, a friend and patient of mine,  to thank for getting me into postal history).

I guess the point is,  the need to collect stamps (or anything) is somehow ingrained in me.  Once I got started,  aside from the life-responsibilities-break,  there was no way to stop.  This of course is facillitated by fellow-believers,  such as my peers in school in the old days,  and by current peers.  Had the internet existed back then (1960's),  who's to say if I would have ended up collecting?  Back then,  stamp collecting,  even in its most rudimentary form,  was a great way to occupy time.

These days I have loads of albums on my shelves,  but my Transworld still sits in a place of honor,  and John Lawson's Penny Black still sits in my first Stanley Gibbons Windsor album,  also bought at John's.

Starting collecting

I started at the age of 8 when my folks took a trip to NYC, and feeling guilty about leaving me, gave me a choice of a stamp album or a "Beat the Clock" game.  Anyone else out there remember that?  But my real start came after I finished grad school and had enough disposable income to indulge myself.  Having see an article in the paper on stamp collecting, I found a stamp shop in my area and went there to see what stamp collecting was really about.  This gives me the opportunity to talk about Milt Edelman, a stamp dealer in Jenkintown, Pa., who recently passed away.  Milt was so patient with me, answering even my dumbest questions with equanimity, showing me stamps and covers so that I could better appreciate the hobby, even though I was in no position to purchase them.  While I started to collect stamps at that time, he also showed me some Boston covers with the names of ships in the upper left hand corner, and told me about the Cunard ship that revolutionized the sending of mail across the Atlantic and in doing so, changed business dramatically as well.  I remember paying $10 a month for I don't known how long for those neat covers.  So my journey really started in Edelman's Stamp & Coin in 1972, and I can thank Milt (may he rest in peace) for a lifetime of great enjoyment, fascination, education and camaraderie.

How Started Collecting

For my 8th birthday, a friend, Hale Schinkle, gave me the Minkus "My First Stamp Outfit" for a present. To the best of my knowledge, no one in my family had ever collected stamps. That started the ball rolling. Now, 50+ years later, the ball seems to be picking up speed! Probably the best birthday present I have ever received. Certainly the longest lasting! Phil

How I got started collecting

Our next door neighbor,a French lady ,and a school teacher,with correspondents in France,gave my mother,also a former school teacher,the commemoratives from her mail.They thought it a wonderful excercise for me,that I go to the public library to look up the subjects thereon and write a small essay .
Kept me out of trouble for the summer but many years later drove me right to a different French connection-Dr. Carroll Chase and his magnificent work on the U S classics.

I'll start.

My introduction came via my Aunt Gladys, my Dad's oldest sister.  She perfectly fit the stereotypical image of a spinster - elementary school teacher, divorced, drove a Pontiac, lived alone with her cat and her stamp collection.  
She got me interested probably when I was 8 or so, and saved for me both foreign and US stamps.  These were hinged into a cheap album my folks bought for me from Gimbels in New York.  Eventually the US stamps were transferred into their own US specialized album, but the foreign still remain in that Gimbel's album, untouched for almost 45 years.
Aunt Gladys also told me about plate blocks, which I obtained from the post office for every issue from about 1958 up to when the PO got greedy with the mulitple numbers.  I have back-filled plate blocks to 1935, and am just missing a handful for a complete run.

Postal history grabbed me in the early 70's while serving in the Air Force.  I pulled a grouping of Panama Pacific slogan cancels out of a small stamp shop in Grand Forks, North Dakota.  Even then I could distinguish the differences in slogans by wording, letter positioning, and die number; and since at the time there was no pertinent literature, tried categorizing them by my own organizational scheme.

It's been expo postal history from then on.  A few diversions really did not hold the same attraction - ship cancels, NYC numbered ovals and Station letter markings - and these have been disposed of.  However I kept my collection of Concorde SST, which another airmail specialist once told me was the third largest ever assembled, after Asquith and Starkweather.

I do still acquire the well centered used 19th century US single every-so-often when the opportunity presents itself.  [listening for Nick's giggling in the background]

How did you start collecting?

Change of topic ... In thinking about how to capture and keep philatelists in the hobby it seems worthwhile to examine why and how some of us began this journey. So what is YOUR story?

Putting stamps in albums. Beware even prof. storage.

Nick Kirke and other assembled luminaries --  What is (or are) the best way(s) to stick my little holding of classic US used off cover in an album'
(Which reminds me of a disaster -- I just found that a storage room I have rented and not accessed for several years was so moist as to mold everything -- including a bunch of top of the line Goddens!  Empty volumes, thank heavens.   I wonder if I can sue in spite of the places disclaimer.  They probably knew that part of the blidg was no good.)

Mail Stream at NYC (or Boston or Phillie, etc.)

Tom Mazza, Harvey Mirsky, Richard Frajola and other assembled luminaries --  Soes anybody know of a source for the activity at the NYC PO (or other of the major POs)  in the 1845-51 period?  Even a little earlier wouldn't hurt.

Pining for opines of yore, yearning for them evermore

Ken L -- Although your objections are valid, they assume a system ill constituted.  If well constituted, I think, obviously, well of Richard's case, as implied by my earlier pining for the PSE cover certs of yore.  (Even there, there was concern that one expertizer's terms -- that his name appear on no good cert where he thought the item bad (but was outvoted) -- were (was?) violated.

The PF -- If not hale fellows well met, then what?

Company -- A number of persons united for the execution of any thing.  I think it fair to call the PF a company.
Or to ride a hobby horse -- he who would make of the law a god will soon find himself worshipping at the altar of Mammon or Bozo.

Seepost markings etc

Ravi--

That seepost marking is found on registered mail carried on the east to west trip of the Bremen New York line in the years 1912-1914.  It is a fairly scarce marking, but pricing by dealers, etc. is erratic.  Drechsler's book says that it is found mostly on registered mail from Hungary, but I have examples on mail from a number of countries in Europe.

Nick K., Richard F. et al. --

I too have "missed" buying a lot by a few minutes or hours.  But I want to mention the flip side side of this situation.   I have previously been the first person to email a dealer that I wanted to buy an item listed on a price list on the web.  The item was worth significantly more than the listed price, and the dealer was contacted by others shortly after I had  sent an email to the dealer that I wanted to buy the item. Those "others" offered the dealer significantly more $$ than the listed price for the item.  But the dealer honored his policy  of selling to the first person who contacted the dealer stating that they wanted to acquire an item at the listed price.  So a big thank you to all you honest dealers out there.

US-Canada Postal agreements

There are copies of US statutes at large for 1789-1925 at http://homepages.uc.edu/~armstrty/statutes.html, which also include postal conventions. You could search each year (involves a lot of downloads), which is the only sure way to find everything relevant. I note in Wawrukiewicz and Beecher's US International Postal Rates 1872-1996 in the chapter on Special Postal Treaties with Canada that there was a postal convention in 1888. The index for that year yields 2 listings: Jan 26, 1888 [p 1413] and April 30 [p 1423] for an amendment. 
Happy hunting!

Classics Society Announces Events For APS Stampshow

Special Society Dinner & Two First-Class Lectures To Be Held During Show

July 1st, 2007... In conjunction with the APS Summer StampShow being held in Pittsburgh, PA August 6-9, 2009, the United States Philatelic Classics Society is sponsoring two lectures and a society dinner. “Every APS Summer StampShow is a wonderful opportunity for the society’s members to meet face-to-face, catch up with old friends, make new friends, and exchange stamps, and stories,” said President Wade Saadi.

A central event for the USPCS members attending the show will be the Society Dinner to be held on Friday August 7th at 6:30pm at Lidia’s (1400 Smallman Street, Pittsburgh—about 4/10 miles from the show hotel and convention center-- http://www.lidias-pittsburgh.com/#).  There is no set cost as it depends upon what you order – there will be no set banquet menu. Each table of 4 or 6 will be billed separately. To make reservations, please contact Jim Boyles at jboyles@dejazzd.com as soon as possible. 

 Following Dwayne Littauer’s lecture on Saturday morning, the winners of the Classics Society’s Chase and Ashbrook Cups will be announced. The APS StampShow is the largest annual philatelic gathering, with something for every stamp collector to see and do. Schedule of USPCS Events at StampShow 

Friday August 7th 3:00pm-4:00pm
Private Ship Letters to the Port of Philadelphia 1792-1879 - Norman Shachat

Friday August 7th 6:30pm Society Dinner at Lidia’s Restaurant 

Saturday August 8th 11:00-12:30pm
Transatlantic Mail Under the 1857 U.S. French Convention - Dwayne Littauer. Presentation of Ashbrook & Chase Cup Awards

About the U.S. Philatelic Classics Society The U.S. Philatelic Classics Society is the only organization that studies in depth the stamps and postal history of the United States from the Colonial era to 1900. Our members include both collectors and students. Many have written articles that have been published in our award winning quarterly magazine, The Chronicle of the U.S. Classic Postal Issues, and in other publications. Information about the USPCS, membership, its publications, and articles of interest to collectors and students of the classic period of U.S. philately, can found at the society's website at www.uspcs.org. Copies of back issues of the Chronicle and previously published books are also available from the society's bookstore, accessible from the society's website, or directly at www.uspcs.org/store.html. 

For media inquiries, please contact: Wade E. Saadi President, USPCS wade@pencom.com or Alex Haimann Publicist, USPCS bretalex1@aol.com

German System

Lars - I do not think such a rigorous system is possible in the United States. However, I still would prefer the group system to individual certification. Here we have substantial problems with fakery and less so with forgeries (added - be thankful you don't have grills and coils to content with).

In the United States at least it is a very small philatelic community. Nobody (that I know anyhow) claims to know all areas of United States philately as an expert. This makes it important to find people you do trust as experts in the various fields. The various groups have identified people that they believe have expert knowledge and use those people to expertise in their specific areas. Only by collating the opinions, and maybe even judging whose opinion is more reliable, are they able to render a final opinion.

Often this entails collector input as well as dealer input. Generally speaking, we can ask a person who collects maybe a single town to find information about what cancels and postmarks were used at a specific date. Dealers certainly have more experience detecting fakery. 

In summary, it is a matter of knowing what you don't know as an expert and being able to solicit the aid of somebody who does know (and knowing who the people who have the requisite expertise are). The British system of rendering opinions "after consultation" is to be commended in my book.

(another add-on: Now that I think about it, the problem with many of the certs I feel are incorrect is that the group did not reach out to find the poeple with the highlest level of expertise. This is true of all of the committees I think)

Guarantees

My problem with guarantees on opinions is who expertises the expertiser.  Remember it is still an opinion no matter who gave it. We all have been wrong at some time.

Skinflints

Michael G,

I am not selling a "product." I am offering to assist fellow stamp and cover collectors to know whether their stamps and covers are properly described and genuine, and whether they have been altered. I have zero interest in their market value, and no one who does have an interest in their value should be participating in the certification process. Those who have such "skin" in the game are precisely the ones who previously corrupted PF opinions.

Skin in the game

Ken Lawrence: Skin in the game has to do with product quality and company reputation, not ignorance or greed as you state.

Expertising

Richard F and Bill W:

Many thanks for your explanations!

A few comments/clarifications:

If I am a German expert, I have to be able to proof my opinion. Ultimately, I have to be able to testify in court. So if I am unsure, I will decline opinion and therefore not guarantee anything. If I give an opinion, the guarantee comes with it.

To become a German expert, I have to submit my reference collection of the area I want to become expert to a peer review: Stamps, plate flaws, color slides (including so-called "frontiere colors"), cancellations (for Luxembourg: at least 80% of all cancels in use on stamps, preferably on a daily basis for the larger post offices).  Also the technical equipment has to be up to date. And I have to show that I know how to use it.

It is helpful to have several award winning exhibits. And to be a member of the respective specialized group - with regular publications about the subject. You have to give a speach about the postal history of your area. First exam is about detecting stamp flaws and showing your general knowledge about stamp production. Final exam about the subject is really tough, you will get confronted with clever forgeries of your chosen area. 

If you pass, then the submitter can be sure that the opinion is of a real expert. I concede that the system is not foolproof, but errors are rare and I am more than a little perplexed by the number of overturned opinions. On the other hand, I do have a few certificates of US organisations about Luxembourg stamps - I better hold my tongue... 

Expertizing

Richard,

I don't disagree. Mercer Bristow is always an extra pair of eyes on every APEX submission, besides the committee members who examine the stamps, and so is Ken Martin, who both sign the certificate. Mercer is broadly experienced, not only for his long service as Director of Expertizing and steward of the APS reference collection, but before that as a member of Harvey Bennett's staff. Often he puts his own opinion on the worksheet before he circulates an item, especially if he thinks it is bogus or misidentified. Sometimes he includes Crimescope images of cancels or alterations that are not visible in ordinary light.  I don't know how Ken Martin works, but when Bob Lamb was executive director, he often did his own research or examination before signing a certificate, and occasionally returned items for re-examination or another opinion. I recall specifically classic Austria and Spanish locals. When the PF sends me items to examine, Lewis often attaches a sticky note with a request for me to check a specific aspect of a stamp or cover on which he has concerns, without hinting what he expects me to find.

US - Canada agreements

I have a cover that has the first 3c payment but is overweight, where only the 3 cents short-payment was collected.  

I did find this link on conventions:

http://www.uspcs.org/Postal_Conventions/

US-Canada Rates

Gary S - I have an 1881 Postal Guide that clearly states that prepayment is compulsory for all mails between US and Canada.

Expertising

Bill W - I do believe that the PF and PSE at least read the discussions here, maybe the APS. It is not completely a cry in the wilderness.

Ken L - I almost always prefer an extra set of eyes even on "easy" things. I have a fit when I look through auction catalogs and see stamps with (almost certianly) fake cancels, or non contemporary cancels, and clean certificates. The "stamp" guys aren't very good at such things in general because they haven't seen enough of the cancels on cover to know what to expect and look for. On the other side, I almost always defer to others to determine shade designations. I might have an opinion on shade but the standards seem to change .....
 
Also, a finalizer is probably also needed. This to insure consistency on what things get called and what do not, etc. Also to verify against previous submissions of same, or similar items.

I do believe that the expert groups do not encourage the stamp collecting community to "peek behind the curtains" and see how the final product is produced and delivered. It could, and maybe should, lead to a lack of confidence in the final certificate. On the other hand, it might also give security, when such such is warranted on certain types of things.

Again I will say that I know everybody strives to produce an accurate certificate. In most cases there will be little dispute amongst experts. It is the problem areas, such as coils and grills, where there is simply a lack of consensus in many cases. The submitters should be aware of those areas and that the risks are far greater when they collect in those fields (I could mention others too but won't).

Postal Agreements between Canada and US need help

Does anyone have any electronic copies of any early agreements around 1880 to 1900 between Canada and the US?  

I am also trying to find UPU Convention documents on the net.

One question in particular is a reciprocal agreement between the US and Canada where a cover has payment for up to one full weight but is overweight thus no payment for the second weight in question.  Was there an agreement where only the deficiency was charged and not double the deficiency?

Please email or post any links.

Thanks in advance.

Expertizing

Considering how often over the years I have published the fact that some items are properly examined by only one expert, and that for others, five experts may not be enought, Bill Weiss's assertion that APEX doesn't want people to realize that is pretty silly. On the Scott 449 on cover, I was the only examiner for APEX, and rightly so. Besides being easy to identify (2¢ Washington, Type 1, rotary press vertical coil), it was a twin to several other Scott 449 covers sold by Siegel and others by user and date. On almost as many occasions, I have written that the three signature method is the most deceptive of all because, as occurred with so many examples I have given, Randy Shoemaker (signing two different ways for himself)  either included names of experts who did not agree with the opinion in all respects, or shopped around for three who did but suppressed the identities of those who examined the item and disagreed with the opinion. The certificates on many items, notably the controversial 1¢ Z grill, reflects an institutional opinion, after considering individual experts' reasons for believing it is genuine and others' who believed it is not. By Richard's criteria, most important items would not be certifiable. Even on fairly ordinary items, I seldom see perfect agreement. Some dispute perforations, gum, other aspects of condition, just as collectors do. In the case of Nick's 90¢ Bank Note, Bill and I agreed with PF and PSE, but Stephen T and, he says, Ron Burns, disagreed. So adding three signatures to the certificate would not help Nick. Short of being an expert himself, he must decide whom to trust and why. As posted below, I gave him my reasons for each of my opinions. When someone questions an APEX opinion, Mercer supplies that information. I think PF and PSE usually do not.

I personally consider the "skin in the game" partisans to reflect either ignorance or greed. I do not spend time expertizing for personal gain, and would not. I do so to assist collectors who want better information, just as I do when I answer a question here about the location of a World War II APO. You could not pay me enough to do either as a job.

Bremen-New York Sea Post Cancel on 1912 Regd Cover from Sweden

Your sharing of Germanic postal history and especially those related to ship mail between Germany and USA reminded me of a couple of Registered Covers I have from Sweden to USA with the transit marking of " Seapost Bremen-New York R". Can you or others share more information about this marking? Was it only used on Registered mail? When did it start and how long? I will post the front and back of this cover on PhiaMercury over the weekend.

last new stuff

This is a post card sent at the printed matter rate by an aspiring actor in Germany in 1920, asking for a copy of  Key to Movie Acting Aptitude from the Film Information Bureau in Jackson, MS.

New Stuff part 5

This one is a bit philatelic but still a nice solo use of the 24c airmail stamp to Germany

New Stuff part 4

This cover is philatelic but was just too pretty for me to pass up. It is a complete set of the China overprint on Germania Reichsposts stamps, on a registered red bad cover from Weihsien in 1902.

New Stuff part 3

This is a cover sent from the SMS Scharnhorst when it docked in Chile after the Battle of Coronel, in November 1914.  The ship was sunk by the British in December at the Falklands.  Very few pieces of mail sent from Chile are known.

New Stuff part 2

This one is a very early usage of a German reply card back to Germany from Argentina. The first message reply card was issued by Germany in July 1879.  This was sent back from Argentina to Germany in Feb. 1880.  UPU did not sanction these until several years later. Prior to UPU sanctioning, reply cards could be sent back only if there was an appropriate agreement between the two postal authorities.

Interesting Stuff

Thought I would post some interesting stuff picked up in the last few months. This one is something I have never seen before, a penalty envelope with a US-German seepost cancel.

Wishful Thinking

Richard,

  You and I have probably been over the years, the two biggest supporters of the old PSE system, whereupon the names of the expertizers were placed on the certs. This was a wonderful idea and instilled confidence in the opinions by the submitters. It is a damn shame that PSE lost sight of the positive effects of that system. 

  When they announced the change (no more experts names on the certs) is when I basically quit expertizing for them (although I did return years later to help Randy out and still (rarely) get a few random items). At that time I argued vigoriously with then CEO Hall (don't remember his first name) that this was not a wise decision. He countered that his vision for PSE was 20,000 certs per month, and when such a volume was accomplished, there would be no need for individual names on the certs.

  The REAL reason this was being done was because at about the same time, PSE went to vitually 95% in-house expertizing, probably to cut the costs of paying outside experts the whopping $3. they paid guys like us! What this meant was that since nearly all of the expertizing would be done in-house, it would certainly be embarrasing for 95% of the PSE certs to bear the names of the 3 in-house examiners, so the names-on-certs were eliminated. For a short period, they claimed the names would be listed when they sought out-of-house opinions, but I think even that idea passed a slow death. So we are now left with the current system with all three major committees refusing for god-awful silly reasons not to include the names of the experts on the certs. 

  Your idea is perfect and I support it 100%. Unfortunately no one is listening.  I have tried several times to convince Mercer Bristow to go to this system of listing the experts on the cert., but he has what he feels are legitimate reasons for not listing them there.  I believe that one of the reasons none of them want the names there, aside from my first point, is because it would force them to be sure every item is viewed by 3 different expertizers, something I honestly do not believe they do for all submissions.  Also, if the vast majority of the expertizing is done by just a few people - which it is - I don't think they would want THAT to be public knowledge either. I think they feel that the illusion of a "Committee" is such that there sits in a boardroom a round table with a committee of 10-15 experts sitting around it! The truth is that much of what is submitted to expert committees is examined by a few people. 

I personally have no problem with an expert committee having as litlle as just one opinion on a very straightforward stamp. After all, why waste time and money passing such an item around to 2-3 more examiners? For example why can't I be the only examiner to work on a mint-OG/NH 1c Columbian stamp? What, if anything is gained by passing it onto two others? Insuch cases, I support the use of only one or two examiners - and this is exactly what they do not want the public to see or know, fearing the public will neither understand or appreciate the adequate job one good examiner can do.  

  How would this affect our system?  Not at all if everyone were honest. If only one expert looks at an item, then only one name should appear, etc. I think the public can accept the truth much easier than to lie to them. 

 Maybe if enough respected philatelists - such as many of this boards' readership were to petition the 3 committees to do this, perhaps it might influence them to act on it.  Do you have the ability to generate/create a petition here?  If so, why don't you do so and then submit it to the committees?

  Forgive spelling errors - it is past my bedtime!

Expertising Wishful Thinking

My feeling is, with due respect for all those who do it alone, that I would like to see the best 3 people in a single area look at an item to be expertised. Those three people, with the added benefit of inter-communication, should be able to reach a consensus opinion. I would then like those three poeple to sign a certificate with their names. 

This format would allow the submitter to evaluate (if capable of doing so)  how much he chooses to trust those three individuals. No possible hint of self-serving certification would be possible (thinking here of dealer certs common in France and Italy as well as Calves).

In fact, I think the above system is much like the one Randy Shoemaker orginally instituted when PSE was founded.

Expertizing

   Lars asks a legimate question "How do you become an expert"? Since there are no "tests" involved, I can tell you how I became an expertizer. First I put in 25 years as a collector/dealer/auctioneer, and in the process handled literally hundreds of thousands of stamps, covers, fancy cancels, essays, proofs, etc, etc.  All the while studying the stamps to learn more about the technical aspects as well as how to identify faults and alterations. 

  Then, at some point in time, probably in the early 1990s/mid 1990s, I was invited by Randy Shoemaker to expertize for PSE, with a particular strength in 19th century stamps, Banknote stamps and covers (I had collected both NYFMs and the 15c Banknote, written books on both, sucessfully exhibited both (both won Grand awards),  and fancy cancellations

  I proceeded to work for PSE for some years, then perhaps 5-6 years ago I did exactly what Michael Perlman has suggested here - I offered to become part of the solution with APEX, volunteering to expertize for them because I had, as a dealer and auction house, saw the perception that APEX was an inferior expert service (talking ONLY about U.S. material here), and I had myself, as Ken noted earlier, refused to accept APEX certificates in my auction business.

 What I was delighted to find was that APEX seems to have as many well-known and totally competent expertizers as does PSE and PF! Regular expertizers for APEX include Richard Champagne, Stanley Piller, Rex Bishop (before joining PSE), Bill Crowe (before and after PSE), Richard Celler, Ken Lawrence (before poor eyesight!), Wayne Youngblood, Jim Lee, Rich Drews, Roger Brody, Bill Bergstrom, etc. And there are others, less well known, who are also competent. 

  Unfortunately, in my opinion, because APEX is on a limited budget (at least I assume that is the reason), the expert committee does not get nearly the publicity in the marketplace as does the PSE and PF, who regularly run fullpage ads in Linns, and other philatelic journals, whereas APEX does not. This alone puts them at a competative disadvantage to the others. Money spent just to publicize the composition of the United States Expert group could probably be recouped when people would realize that their stamps are being examined by the most able group of expertizers that exists!

 Despite the above, I do not want readers to think I am endorsing any one committee over any other because I honestly believe they all do a generally-wonderful job.  All are sincerely trying their best to issue accurate opinions. To do otherwise would be suicide. Since I also am a fulltime expertizer with my own expert service, I also do not wish to give the perception that I am being critical to them for my own gain. While my service is both infinitely faster and greatly cheaper than any of the "big 3" services, my opinion does not have the value in the marketplace that theirs does, and rightlfully so, since I am only one person, whereas in theory, all of them show each item submitted to multiple expertizers.  In time I hope that the marketplace will recognize my opinions as significant because of their accuracy, not their price or speed.

APEX Guarantee

Richard,

I don't know the answers. I struggled for ten years to get the guarantee, but I was no longer on the Board when it was finally adopted. Ask Mercer. I suspect the lawyer's answer will be that there is no guarantee other than what's written, but I don't see anything that excludes covers. I also don't know how often APEX has paid off, or on what kinds of material.

APEX Guarantee

Ken L - If APS says bad and later proved genuine I suppose no guarantee? Covers?

APEX Guarantee

The American Philatelic Expertizing Service (APEX) guarantees this opinion as follows. If you purchased this item with an APEX certificate describing this item as genuine, and it subsequently is proven to be counterfeit, altered, or misidentified, APEX will compensate you up to $5,000 under the conditions listed below. The guarantee is valid for five years after the date of the certificate. There are no other guarantees or warranties, express, or implied.

The APEX guarantee does not apply to condition, such as thins, creases, gum disturbance, tears or gum loss, since condition can change after the certificate is issued. The guarantee terminates immediately if the item is altered (e.g., cleaned, repaired, reperfed, regummed) after the certificate is issued.

If, during the validity period of the guarantee, APEX agrees that its original decision is incorrect and that the material is counterfeit, altered, or misidentified, APEX will purchase the guaranteed material from the owner. APEX reserves the right to determine the value of the material. In establishing the value, APEX will consider 1) the sale price, 2) receipts or other documentation provided by the owner, 3) value placed on the item when submitted for certification, and 4) the judgement of experts in the field. In no case will APEX pay more than $5,000 per certificate or the value of the item, whichever is less.

If APEX does not agree that its original decision is in error, the owner may, as his or her sole remedy refer the matter to a disputes panel, consisting of three APS members — one selected by APEX, one selected by the owner of the material, and one selected by the other two. The panel would function under the laws of Pennsylvania and its decision will be binding on both parties.

This APEX guarantee is issued by the American Philatelic Society and not by individual members of the APEX expertizing committee or its staff.

Getting In The Game

Stephen T............and others.

I must second whal Michael said about getting into the game and become part of the solution.  I have, over a lot of years, rendered many opinions on One Cent 1851's and 1857's but I have never given a guarantee.  There are a few that read this bord regularly that can attest to that............

Those that have the knowledge need to bring it to bear and help the PF and others.  Once those people start doing that I am sure their perspective of "guarantees" and "skin in the game" will change.......for the better.

Everyone involved in the process now is trying to do a good job and deserve the respect of such.

Expertising

Lars - Although I probably shouldn't, I will try to tackle your question because I understand that it is a legitimate question without bias.

There are several problematic areas in US expertising. There are differing opinions amonst those who expertise and often both sides have viable and defensible arguments. In short, there is not likely that there will be a meeting of the minds unless there is new information published and agreed upon, or new technology available.

Guarantees - I am not aware that APEX guarantees their certificates (do they?).  For all the BP attempts, they can't claim profound and absolute fact. They can only give opinions which at the time everybody else is afraid to refute. Having such opinions endorsed by a court of law is nonsense to me.

There are no tests that I know of for becoming an expert in the US (maybe AIEP does this).  If other people in the hobby respect a person's opinion, they become as expert I suppose. It is in the eye of the beholder only. Very few self-proclaim themselves experts.

Add-on - Oftentimes in expertising US covers, the only thing that can be said is "decline opinion" - usually in reference to if a stamp originated on the cover. Saw three such covers just today (local posts that were usually left uncancelled when properly used on cover).

Expertising

I have been following the expertising discussion for a few days. There are several things I do not understand:

If there is a problematic area (i.e. High Value Banknotes with Grills), why is there no stop in expertising? Get the experts together, set clear standards and act accordingly. Then there should be consistent results in future.

Guarantee: Why is there no guarantee with the exception of the APEX? The BPP (www.bpp.de) guarantees all certificats for five years. The expert has to be able to prove his cert in court if necessary. And the costs for expertising are around 3-4% of catalogue value.

Experts: How do you become an expert? Again I can only compare with the German service, where you are put to two tests. If you do not pass the last test with 100% correct results, you are not admitted.  

Quebec postal markings

Have all the varieties of postal markings from Quebec, ca 1860, ever been cataloged or documented?