Message Board

One Cent Plate Varieties

Ron,

You are dead on. The definition is the design, not the plate position. Two short stories that are not TOO far off from good analogies:

I once overheard Bob Siegel talking to a collector at a show. The young man had brought a 3-cent 1861 along for Bob to examine. "Is this a pink?" he asked. I'll never forget Bob's answer: "It was once. I'ts not now".

At a Geological Society of America annual convention, the first speaker got up and told the 500 people in the audience that the airlines had lost his slides. Just when everyone thought he would sit down and shut up, and was beginning to feel good about an extra coffee break, he said "Now the first slide, if you could see it..."

Roland's Rant

I agree with you. Here is my description of a #5 in the upcoming Hansen sale (his "second" copy):

1c Blue, Ty. I (5). Position 7R1E, bright shade, ample side margins but cut in at top and bottom, leaving the Type I characteristics to the imagination, lightly cancelled by blue town datestamp, sound

THE IDEAL STAMP FOR THE COLLECTOR WHO NEEDS SCOTT 5 FOR COMPLETION BUT DOES NOT CARE TO SPEND A FORTUNE ON AN EXAMPLE WITH MARGINS ALL AROUND.

Ashbrook pencil note on back "Plate One Ear(ly), 7R1E This Position Type I". Wagshal Census No. 5-CAN-006. With 1975 P.F. certificate for strip of three

Killer Coin

Richard,

What an incrediable coin you have..............stunning!

Demonetized Stamped Envelopes

Paul,

Genuine 3¢ Nesbitt stamped envelopes exist with genuine "OLD STAMPS NOT RECOGNIZED" markings, and cost a fortune. If that is not proof of demonetization, what might be?

Cover Restoration

Dave S. - Roger's answer to is it worth it, presupposes that you only seek to recover the cost of restoration of when reselling. For my collection, I have paid Gloria McKown to clean and restore a number of covers that were worth less than $1000. They were important to the storyline of the exhibit, and I couldn't bear to take them out, but was tired of looking at the same sad stains year after year. Painful, sort of like listening to a scratched LP and waiting for the scratch to come around again and again, or waiting for that throaty cough in in the middle of a performance recorded live. So it was well worth it to me, even if I won't eventually be able to recover the cost.

Another "Gem" of The Hobby

Nick,

On your #6, I would hope it is simple.  The type IA of the One Cent is defined as a full design at the bottom and an incomplete design at the top (burnished away in the lay down of the plate).

So unless the stamp shows ALL of the design at the bottom and it shows clearly the missing portion of the design (cut away does not count) at the top then it cannot be a Type IA, Scott #6.

Lets get up on the soap box.  Check out this "wonderful, very fine rare stamp" which has been certified by the PF as a Scott #5A, Type IB.  The current auction description is:
"Position 6R1E best example position according to Scott. Fresh color, faintly canceled in blue, margins clear to in. Very fine for this RARE issue. (1999 PF Cert #0343502)."

Very fine????  It is not even a grade of good!  A type IB must show full design at the top, virtually full plumes at the bottom and almost full balls at the bottom..... otherwise it is just a common, damaged stamp that used to be a type IB.  The PF does a great disservice to the hobby and the marketplace by issuing a certificate stating that this stamp is a Scott #5A, Type IB which is is not even close.

Something really has to change here or am I the only one who feels this way?

British Pence

After all these years I finally stumbled onto the reason "d" was used by the Brits as an abbreviation for pence .... from Roman coin denomination "denarius" (equal to 10 asses [not the animal]).

An early denarius with "X" for denomination

20% cash back (up to $200) on Buy it Now items on eBay

I haven't seen this posted to a stamp board yet, sorry if it is common knowledge.  There is a cash-back offer for buy it now purchases paid for using paypal.  The complete terms and conditions are here http://pages.ebay.com/cashbackoffer/terms.html?_trksid=m38
I saw this posted a few days ago on a woodworking board, and thought it only applied to certain participating eBay stores, but it works for any qualifying Buy it now transaction.  I just earned $200 cash back on a philatelic purchase (the offer was 30% earlier today, and was reduced to 20% this afternoon). 

To get the discount, you need to go to live.com and search for anything that might be available on eBay - say "chisels" then look for a sponsored link saying "you may get 20% off with PayPal if eligible" - once you are in ebay with the cashback logo showing, you can purchase any (or almost any) buy it now item and get the discount.  It has to be paid for by Paypal to get the discount.  Limit of 6 purchases per account and only one item per "session."  Excludes motor vehicles and real estate.  Cash back is listed as pending in your account after 12 to 48 hours.  Cash back is paid after 60 days then you can transfer to your Paypal account. 

see this thread for more details about the offer (also lots of discussion of band saws) http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3890163&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=2   Look at posts around 9:00 pm on Oct 3 for screen captures showing how to make sure your purchase qualifies for the cash back

also see this thread - http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=852757

Apparant Grades

Richard F.-

Don't despair, there is NO CHANCE of  'apparent grades'for PSE certs.

Apparent Grades

Richard F:   I like that!  Can you pay for these items with apparent money?

Hope they don't do this with stamps!

From the PCGS Grading standards (for currency):

Unlike coins, we will authenticate and grade currency that has damage or other problems, or that has been restored. Sometimes whatever work was done to a note will be detracting and make the note less valuable. Other times the notes will be conserved in such a way to make the note presentable and collectible. Many notes are so rare that even a heavily restored example might remain one of the best available. Notes that have major faults such as tears, splits, holes, missing pieces or have been subject to major restoration, such as repaired tears or splits, redrawing of the design, bleaching of the paper, or even reconstruction of missing pieces, will be assigned a “problem note” designation. Such problems will be noted on the grading label. In these cases we will assign an “Apparent” grade followed by a brief and concise description of the problems or repairs. The “Apparent” grade will equate to what the note would have graded without the mentioned problems. For example, “Apparent VF30, bleached and starched” might be a description of a problem note, as might “Apparent XF45, upper-right corner restored”. No net grade will be given. 

There are a lot more notes that don't exist in normally collected grades than stamps.

Beauty

Nick K -- Much as I like the second issue, National really went a step further in elegence.  But the T&C oner definitely has puissance (I'm not sure what that means, but it seems so cool).  Dick Scheaff always loved the one cent large BN (the early version) and when he became a major USA stamp designer, he put an image of the Franklin on a stamp celebrating stamp collecting.  He was also involved in the modern issues based on old designs.
   So -- show us the 5A and the 6.

David Savage

Your question about whether the cost of restoring a cover is worth it.  Just finished a report for the APS on whether they should offer such a service.  The best info I can give you is that given me from one of the folks on this list.  It's not worth it unless the cover is worth $1,000 or more.  Oh, by the way, Nancy Poli has a two year backlog.

Cotton Exposition

Matt L:  
Sure, I will get it posted up in the next day or so as time allows.

John M:  most interesting!  Any chance of posting it up to PhilaMercury so we can all see it?

Sharpness

Bernard B, you are simply just too smart. I fancy at school you were the first with your hand up and the teacher would glare at you.

Ron C. I love your posts because they sound so like you! I can just imagine you sitting down and having such a conversation.

I have always thought the imperf one center just about the most beautiful and complex engraved US stamps in the book. In the early days I had a gorgeous plate proof and wondered was there a way to scrape it a bit thinner and slip in a cancel somewhere and make my very own No 5. If I am honest maybe as many as 80 percent of the 1c's I collected seemed a touch washed out. It's generally only on the proofs where the colour blazes.

By the way yours truly is now the VERY proud owner of a Scott 6. Tremendous margins and lightly cancelled with the bottom scrolls untouched in all their glory. I know you don't believe my 5A has any right to exist . What are your feelings on Sc6? Just saying  "envy" would be extremely acceptable.

Don't want to spoil the post but it grades 90J.  Nick

World's Industrial Cotton Centennial 1884

Dave S:
I also have a cover that has both cancels on the same cover, NO85-01 front as a transit marking for forwarding to another destination, NO85-02 as received.  Dated May 17, 1885.  It appears there are at least two of these.

Demonetization

For those less involved in this unique period, I would point out that it is often misunderstood that demonetization took place at different levels.  First, stocks in rebel states were demonetized by both sizes.  Then a rolling demonetizaton took place origin office by office (some had to roll it back when new stocks were exhausted).   Then, by areas, demonetization took place at destination.  This process ran for seven months.  Occasionally stamps leaked through after this, but few.   There was a period of overlap period when stamps of both new and old issue were being sent to post offices.
I have examples of demonetized star dies -- including a very interesting example from NYC that was likely demonetized at destination..  NYC delayed demonetization, probably until Jan.1.
Note that the indicia on postal stationary were referred to as stamps.

Scott T -- I was able to taste a number of 2005 Bordeaux today.  They are outstanding.

Nick K --  Lordy lord -- I was referring to Lord Whimsey in response to your heading.  The great, albeit fictional detective.   By the by, I recently read all of Holmes -- the story of the yellow face is Amazing!

The Demon

Paul -- I think there was more info in the email I sent you long ago.  The PMG said (admittedly he misphrased it) he demonetized the things.  I don't know how Regan phrased it, but the Southern states clearly demonetized them.  And the covers show the postmasters were demonetizing them in the north.
Richard -- I still don't know what you are talking about.  They were just as demonetized as the labels (the the exceptions of the clear exceptions).

Front of Tag

Address

4th Class Tag

The scan is of a tag used inner city in San Francisco to mail rubber products of some sort. Is is possible that since it was an inner city usage the goods were picked up an delivered without the tag being cancelled? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

FoxPro

Ron C: I have used FoxPro in the past for my Hale database. It is easy to use and easy to learn. However, I moved to Excel because FoxPro was not supported in OSX. if that has changed then I do recommend it. It is a DBase IV compatible format so your data can be ported to almost any database program in the future.

"Paid in Money" permits

Here is the ad side of that large card.

"Paid in Money" permits

Chas (and Ken)
Here are a couple examples of the early 'paid in money' permits.

Database Question

Richard,

I do LOVE the census database......this is for personal use.

In followup to my question about a database, has anyone used FoxPro to build a cover database?  That seems to be a better option than trying to use Acess........

Thanks,

Hench PA

Is there a Pennsylvania expert who can help me determin where the post office at Hench, Perry County, Pennsylvania was located?  It was operational between 1898 and 1904

Following that abomination, I had to make up for it and posted up two covers that I obtained the scans for yesterday.

One should appeal to Bill Weiss after our e-mail exhange earlier in the week.
The other might might be of interest to our members who collect Hawaiian material.

May I have some advice and suggestions please

Just posted up on the PM board cover #10780.

The condition is positively horrendous, but........
- its the only known cover containing both the New Orleans Expo origin and receiving cancels.
- its a new EKU for the receiving postmark.

Would this be worth it to have professionally restored?

Star Die Envelopes during the Civil War

Based on reports by Thorp in Envelope World:

Northern Usage

1c continued to be issued to 1870 and is still valid today
3c+1c compound continued to issued to 1863 when carrier service ended but its use is still valid today
6c was distributed in such low quantity that only two used are known to exist (probably not demonetized)
10c was demonetized in the east but use on the west coast, especially in conjunction with the Pony Express, continued until JAN 1, 1862

Confederate usage

Any "Star Die" envelope originating in any of the six original seceded States used in any month from FEB 4 to MAY 31
No authorized Confederate usage is possible from Tennessee
Any "Star Die" envelope used in any eastern Confederate State used in the months of SEP to DEC had to be used in the year 1860
Any used in the same area from JAN through MAY had to be used in 1861

Plating and Collecting The One Cent 1851

Nick,

No truer words could be spoken about a stamp which is beautiful and can bring a lifetime of joy.  There is still plenty of time for you to find the light and unload those "trophy stamps" at the top of the market........LOL!!

One of my all time favorite One Cent pieces is the wonderful block in the upcoming Siegel sale - 31 -52L2.  I remember so well sitting at Andy Levitt's table at SESCAL '77 and him, with a sly smile on his face, handing me one of those little 6x8 black stock books and asking "is there anything in here which you might like?"  When I opened the book, on the first page, was this block!  The second page was the vertical strip of three 40 - 60R2 with full imprint and plate number 2!  I knew both pieces because I had many times drooled over the photos of them in both Ashbrook's and Nienken's book.  Of the fifteen pages in the book I wanted fourteen of them.  I too remember, as my stomach was hurting like hell,  closing the book and handing it back to Andy telling him I couldn't afford it right then. 

Andy said to me "I didn't ask you if you could pay for them, I asked you if you wanted them."  He handed me the book and said "take it with you, we will figure it out later."   We did, and they became special pieces in my collection. 

So Nick, here is where you can start....... this may not be big game hunting but it sure is rewarding while you are in the shed!

Scott T. - I clipped the photo from your site.  I hope that was OK.

 

Database

Ron C - What? You don't like the census site database?

RELATIONAL DATABASE FOR COVERS

Does anyone out there have a cover database done with Microsoft Access (or another good one)?  I'm trying to find one to use as a template so I do not have to reinvent the wheel.

Thanks,

Demonetization

Back to my first post on the matter - not a good word to use in decribing what happened to the envelopes. Simply stated alternative: "some post offices did not accept some postal entires after receiving new supplies of the new envelopes"

CSA Demonetizes Union Postage!

Order from Confederate States Postmaster General John H Reagan, effective June 1, 1861, required all (Confederate) postmasters "to render to the Post Office Department at Washington, D.C., their final accounts and vouchers for postal receipts and expenditures up to the 31st of this month (May, 1861), taking care to forward with said accounts all postage stamps and stamped envelopes remaining on hand, belonging to the Post-Office Department of the United States...

Demonetization

Bill - I agree completly - I was composing when you posted.

Demonetization

Paul - You won't find an "official" post office law that says the envelopes were demonetized - they weren't. What does that matter? The only thing that matters is what the offices actually did - whether based on an informal regulation, or instructions, or general idea of the individual post masters regarding what they thought was the intent of any of the above. With postal history, things don't always come out neat and clean.

To your cover, if I remember your comments correctly, what do the local newspapers in Olney, Illinois state? It varied office to office ....

DEMONETIZATION

Thorp reports in Vol. 6, Nos. 5-6, OCT 1964 issue of U.S. Envelope World, pgs 78-80:

"It will be noted from the reading of the circular that Stamped Envelopes were not directly mentioned.  This omission of stamped envelopes has been the cause of much confusion but mentioned or not many, perhaps most, postmaster did in fact demonitize stamped envelopes.  This was effected in the newspaper advertisements published by postmasters calling in the 'old style stamps and stamped envelopes.'  There is ample evidence in the form of the actual advertisements themselves that this de facto demonitization of stamped envelopes was widespread."

Circular refered to is from:  Post Office Department, Finance Office, 1861

Taking the politics out of stamps

Richard,

Of course you are correct and this chat board is not a forum for politics even if absolutely down the middle, I mean I just love both your quaint little parties in equally abundant measure.

I wonder if Caesar was looking over his druid groat stamps while his capital burnt? Or perhaps his Gaul Grianulars?

Bernard, you are too olblique for a simple Brit.

Back to stamps. I bought literally dozens of imperf one centers from Andy Levitt's earlier Nutmeg sales when he had pages of 4 margined copies. I used to pay the premium to get them all plated with the thought that one day I'd retire to a shed at the bottom of the garden and become a master plater myself. In the end they got sold to fund the condition frenzy. Now I see wonderful examples of the Plate 2 vertical crack variety coming up in Siegel and I am thinking what did I do? I mean there is even a multiple. They are just stunning. What a coup de gras for any plater and what a page they will make for a 1c exhibit.

DEMONETIZATION - REPLY TO BERNARD BIALES ET. AL.

For what it's worth, I have yet to see any positive proof that any of the embossed envelopes of the first or second Nesbitt issues were demonetized.  The PO notices DO NOT mention envelopes -- only stamps -- and a prominent collector / exhibitor of postal stationery has expressed uncertainty regarding demonetization of the 6 cent items, although he too says that the 3 cent ones definitely became invalid for use.  

If nothing else I would have expected to locate some sort of guidance on this matter in USMPOA but there is none. Nor is there anything on the subject in the Chase, Ashbrook, and Perry books that deal with the period around 1861 and the general topic of demonetization.

 At the risk of seeming ungrateful, I would like to be guided beyond everyone's opinions, warm reminiscences, anecdotes, and conventional wisdom and be offered some solid proof one way or the other.

Paul B.

Permit Mail

Chas,

Stampless mail by permit imprint was authorized for mail of the third and fourth classes effective October 1, 1904. The requrired endorsement originally was "Paid in Money," with the Permit number. Yours is an example of the second endorsement.

Bredon, not Breed

Nick K -- Oops, sorry about mis-spelling Lord Peter's name.  A favorite of my Sheffield wife, though I think her heart was warmest for the Harriet Vane stories.

Dutch Tiles

The originals were probably not bathroom tiles. Such tiles became very popular in the Netherlands in the 17th Century, inspired by Chinese porcelain. They are still incorporated in some modern homes. Usually they are used as fireplace surrounds, kitchen backsplashes, or even ro cover entire walls. If you ever visit Delft there is a wonderful museum there which explains the history and variety of this craft.

Permit Mail

Charles Adrion,
I believe there was an act in 1904 which allowed 3rd and 4th class mailings with paid permits.  In 1920, it was also allowed on first class mail.

this is the permit card front

I'd never seen simulated bathroom tiles on a postcard either.

early permit mail

I know little about permits, but I always thought they originated in the early 1920's.
Is commercial postcard anything special?  Derby Conn 10May06 receiving cancel.

Politics

The surest way to kill a board discussion is to move into political discussions and views. 

Please DON'T go there .....

Peter Death Breed

Nick -- One very interesting aspect of this thing is that everyone is running around like a chicken with its head cut off because the government will not be able to estimate the long term value of the instruments (of mass destruction) that it is buying.  Our phellow philatelist, Mr. Pimco himself, has said that they have tools to do this well and in a trice (how long be a trice, pray tell -- well, I think he may have said 15 minutes or some such, actual).   And he would do it free if the other guys (Blackrock?) would pitch in on the same basis.  I suspect he knows whereof he speaketh, but the politicians bloviate onward and downward as though he don't exist.

Whimsy

When I was undergoing officer training it was drummed into me that it was preferable to make any decision, right or wrong - than to appear indecisive in front of your men. Well yes, little wonder we lost an empire.

I believe something along those lines might have just happened in Washington. At least it might free up some cash for those hard done Wall Street bankers to recommence buying stamps .....