Message Board

Group Lots

David S's post regarding Ruby cover lots is a useful bit of anecdotal evidence that large lots, which sellers fear so much (on the misguided notion that they don't bring enough money), actually bring fair market value.

It's not so easy to sell lots of low-value covers, and the road is paved with the bones of postal history dealers who tried to make a living doing it.

For Mike E

I don't know who bought Risvold 1076.

Risvold 1077 acquired by Ruby, who has already broken it up into individual covers and cards, offering them on ebay with very little interest.

An observation: Ruby has been taking a financial beating on bulk cover lots that they bought at various auctions recently.  He's still trying to dispose of the dregs from the bulk expo lots purchased at the Rumsey sale last April.  Some of those covers are on their fifth ebay relist, with no takers.

Dates Needed

Does anyone have departure and arrival dates for the first ship leaving Panama on or after 21 February 1858, sailing to Valparaiso?

About the Hudson Cover

Is the cover incomplete regarding the manuscript rate notation? Since the first digit is indeed "1" and the rate is indeed 12 1/2 shouldn't the manuscript rate be 12 1/2? (The 1/2 part of 12 1/2 is not visible to me.)

Also... the large squiggle pen marking that goes through the Hudson postmark... I presume that is the 1/8 notation applied in the UK?

RE: Question on Cover to Sweden

Mohamed,

Thank you for the detailed information.

Any reason why such a small cover would be postage due to begin with?  There is no evidence of the envelope containing bulky contents, and the envelope itself is small (92mm x 140mm).

RE: Question on Cover to Sweden

David Williams:

"2" here means "doule" the postage due on the cover.
25 centimes X 0.8 (to convert to the Swedish currency) X 2= 40 (as indicated in the blue manuscript)

rattiness is in the eye of the beholder

George: I am not a judge, but I think if you make clear that as far as your extensive research indicates, it is the only one with these properties, it will explain why the cover is in the exhibit. I seem to recall that for judging, condition refers to the best condition among those available.

Question on Cover to Sweden

And the reverse.

Question on Cover to Sweden

Having had no response to my question posted here on March 7, I will repost with the hope that perhaps my question was missed amidst all the discussion of the Pony Express / Indians / weather.

The question concerns the number "2" which appears above and between the "T"  and "25 centimes" markings.  I know the "T" "25 centimes" represents the equivalent of a 5 cent postage due.  Someone in the Louisville Stamp Society suggested that the "2" could possibly relate to either a specific postal clerk or a specific marking device (much like the 1's and 2's in more modern machine cancels).

A couple of other questions came up at last night's meeting.  Why would such a small cover, with no signs of being overweight, be charged extra postage, given the UPU rate to Sweden was 5 cents?  Also, was the "T" "25 centimes" marking applied in New York City or in Sweden?

Here is the cover once more. 

Hudson Trans-Atlantic

Thanks to all for your comments and expertise (as usual) !

One final question if I may (especially directed to any Judges out there);  Given that in many years of collecting Hudson postal history,  this is just the  third trans-Atlantic cover I've gotten my hands on and the only one with these particular Hudson markings,  should this item go into my exhibit even though it is ratty?  Will its appearance in this condition be detrimental to the exhibit,  or is it unusual enough that it won't matter?  Should I have a pro attempt to clean the cover up?

Again,  thank you :)

Half cent stamp for change examples

Here are couple of nice examples of the 1/2c change. 

The first is 1941 unsealed greeting card sent at the 1 1/2c rate (horizontal coil) but probably had writing on the card so was caught and charged the full 3c first class rate.  No return address, so addressee was charged on delivery with 1/2c stamp for change on 2c payment to carrier. 

Second is 1925 post card just after the change in rate to 2c, preparid with 1 1/2 c and caught for 1/2c due with 1/2c change.

About the Hudson cover

Several people have expressed doubt about the various claims about this cover.

First, the Add'l 1/2 penny mark represents the wheel tax, in effect in Scotland  and a few places in Ireland and England (skeptics should check with Robinson, for the port and call ..., the definitive UK rates book for pre-1840); during its period of effectiveness, it is ubiquitous on mail to Scotland other than ports of arrival. Green was not an unusual colour for postmarks in UK, so why not for rate marks---and in any event, the add'l 1/2 marking is just like the dozens of others known to indicate this rate. [And it does not represent additional 1/2¢.]

The upper right mark is a 12---that rounded form of the 1 is seen occasionally (if requested, I will dig up examples, but they are well-hidden in the house, so will take time to find)---and is part of 12 1/2, for the US domestic rate 80--150 miles.

As pointed out by Kevin, the lower left rate mark is 1/8 (presumably applied at Liverpool) collect, made up completely standardly of 8d incoming ship letter (this amounts to the TA rate) and  1/ internal UK rate. This could not be prepaid in the US.

Since the PAID mark is from Hudson, it could only have applied to the 12.5¢ rate (the other rate marks having been applied in UK); the rest of the charges (20.5 d stg) would have been paid by the recipient.

The partial cds at lower left resembles some UK receiving marks.

Liverpool ship letters

Lawrence G

It was not possible to prepay transatlantic postage from the United States in 1820. The letter entered Liverpool as an unpaid ship letter.

Hudson, NY cover

George - "NB" is certainly North Britain i.e. Scotland

Risvold Minnesota material in SpinkShreves sale

Does anybody know who got lots 1076 & 1077?  Was it a dealer or collector? 
Thanks.

Re: An age appropriate personel approach to nuturing new collectors.

Morning all,

Just enjoyed catching up on yesterday's posts.  Great reading.  Richard, your board rocks.

Being the optimist I try to be let me modestlly propose everyone is right in their opinions based upon their individual circumstances rather than no body's right when everyone seems to be wrong or at least not going down the same path?  The variety of paths folks mention that brought them into our fold at various points in their lives seem to all revolve around receiving a personal positive nudge to become one of us in an age appropriate mannor at a time in their life when the seed of this new activity could take root and grow. 

The availability of mentoring from an encouraging parent and/ or member of our hobby seems to be a somewhat uniform key factor.  Geologically speaking, many stars have planets but few have all of the right stuff at one point in time to sprout life?  Same for sprouting a collector on our third rock today.  Both take more time to mature than one exposure to a presentation on the subject.  Relatively few planets, and people, successfully nuture life or our hobby.  

Therefor, our challenge is much more complicated and time consuming than walking kids through a stamp show and giving then some seed pieces of paper.  There is a definite art to successfuly infecting others with our affliction rather than a science?

Bes tragds,  Russ

Half Cent Change

They are not scarce. I had one with the ½¢ Washington Bicentennial stamp; it might be pictured in my AP article on the series. I've seen several with ½¢ Hales.

Half-cent stamps as change

Half-cent stamps as change

I have seen several examples with the half-cent Hale and Prexy Franklin.  Has anybody seen such a usage with the 1954 half-cent Liberty?

Hudson

The markings "Addl" and "1/2" go together, I think.  If the Scottish wheel tax was 1/2 it makes sense.  

Also, the "1" of the red ms "12" doesn't look a whole lot like a 1... It looks more like 2.  
So wouldn't the rate be >12 1/2 cents?  As that only pays for the 124 miles.  Where is the payment for carriage to Liverpool?

Hudson

Hudson is about 124 miles from where the New York Packets departed, so the rate would have been 12 1/2 cents to the port.  The 1/2 is in  the same ink as the Hudson cds.  What color are the Scottish carriage fee markings? I don't recall ever seeing a green one.

It looks like addl 1/2 . Why that would be so is a mystery if it was appiled in Hudson... why wouldn't the PM just have added a manuscript 1/2?

Hudson, NY Cover

Previous posts address the NB and 1/2 Add'l.  Here's the shite on Berwick upon Tweed

England or Scotland? Berwick-upon-Tweed's position on the north bank of the River Tweed, long held to be the nominal border between the two countries, led to the town changing hands no fewer than 14 times in the two centuries up to 1482.

Then the Royal Post had to make up their mind, and the tax man won.  At that point they could throw the mail across.

12, not 22 or 72

It's 12 and is part of 12 and a half, the single US rate 80--150 miles to New York, presumably the port of exit.

Doesn't the PAID handstamp apply [only] to the internal US rate? I guess it's a coincidence that its colour is almost exactly the same as the that of the wheel tax (half-penny) hs.

Hudson, NY cover

George,

I'm not sure the US rate is 22 cents - the second digit is definitely a "2", but I'm not so sure of the first digit. I'm no expert on US rates, so maybe someone else can clarify.

[Add-on] The British rate is 8d incoming Ship Letter rate plus 1/- Liverpool to Berwick (Single Rate), plus the 1\2d Wheel Tax.

[Add-on 2] The "faint and partially struck cds" may be an Edinburgh transit postmark.

Kevin

Thanks for the info (and thanks to Ron as well) !

You wrote:  It was not possible to prepay the US-UK transatlantic rate at this time, at least not via Liverpool.
That's what I would have thought as well,  yet there is the 'paid' Hudson handstamp applied (and its definetly a Hudson marking....I have multiple examples).  My brain can't wrap itself around that,  and the cover appears to have been rated '22' cents via manuscript.

Hudson, NY cover

George,

Ron Cipolla is right, NB=North Britain, and the 1/2d is what's called the Wheel Tax, applied to letters carried by horse & carriage in Scotland. It's not a negative sign before the 1/2d, just a break in the line. It was not possible to prepay the US-UK transatlantic postage at this time, at least not via Liverpool.

Your letter was probably carried by Blue Swallowtail Line "Napoleon", sailed from NY March 8, arrived Liverpool March 24.

Sailing info from James Pullin "North Atlantic Packets", which in my opinion was very unfairly criticised on this board when it was published. He was even criticised for not doing what he did not set out to do, ie document sailings from Philadelphia.

George,

I believe the NB was North Britain as the town is in Northumberland and the 1/2 mark, I believe, is a tax stamp on roads to Scotland as the town is just below the Scottish border.   Just a guess.

Hudson, NY cover of the day....with the usual questions:

I picked up this stampless cover just today.  The writing indicates the cover was mailed at Hudson on March 7, 1829,  sent to 'Berwick-on-Tweed  Europe  NB.'
There is a black 27mm Hudson cds  (these were used 1820-1830) and a 'paid in ribbon' handstamp also typical for this era coming out of Hudson.  There is a faint,  red manuscript '22'  (I think) upper right.
Other markings include:
'Liverpool Ship Letter'
Addl  - 1/2
a faint and partially struck cds I have zero chance of making out.

Questions:  I'm assuming this cover went to Great Britain,  but what does the 'NB' stand for?
Can anyone with the appropriate reference figure out which ship this cover may have travelled on?
Why the 'Addl  -1/2?'    I'm guessing this means 1/2d postage due,  although I don't get why a 'negative sign' is placed before the '1/2.'   Was the correct rate for trans-atlantic 22-cents?

And yes,  I realize the cover is pretty ratty,  but having not seen one like this before out of Hudson I had no choice but to purchase it   ;0)

Thank you for any insights !

Half-cent stamps as change

Dave,

Those aren't as rare as one might think.  I have at least three with the half-cent stamp still attached.  They look good, but one or more could have been faked.

Bisects

Postage due bisects were always legal; postage stamps, not. Philatelic confections in defiance of the rules were abundant, especially beginning with the 1925 1½¢ third-class rate. Some of those were tolerated contrary to regulation, but a suprising number of them are actually extraneous supplements to the 1¢ drop letter rate masquerading as third-class.

How does one pay a half-cent postage due?

Len Piszkiewicz had the answer in his prexy exhibit.  A late 30's printed matter rate (1 1/2 cents) franked with a one cent stamp.  

Len's explanation:  PO clerk lightly tipped onto the cover a pair of 1/2 cents.  When the addressee picked up the item, he paid a penny, the clerk removed one of the 1/2 centers, and gave him the cover with the other 1/2 cent still attached as "Change".

Got to watch what you say around here

Robert - now see what you did!

Bring up a topic and all kinds of stuff finds its way to the board!

(oh wait - I posted the first one)

never mind.

Chip

20th Century Bisect

I believe this to be a legitimate postage due bisect.

Seems the fellow had too much Christmas cheer and missed the Christmas party the day before.  Maybe it was the hangover that caused him to apply only a 1/2¢ stamp leaving the other 1/2¢ to be paid..

20th century philatelic bisectery

Obviously philatelic, since hand canceled.  
Unless the clerk flunked the vision test.
A handback maybe?

Bisects

Here is an attempt by the sender to meet the 3 cent war rate. The letter was missed by the postal clerk and escaped any penalty.

...and late 19th century bisects

Think maybe this one was philatelically inspired?
Think maybe the postmaster was not amused?

Simple question:
Why use a bisect of a 2c stamp along with a 1c stamp when you could just use the whole 2c stamp to pay the postage?
hmmm.  Wonder the answer to that one.  ;-)

Chip

20th century bisects

There are no legitimate 20th century U.S. bisects except for postage dues. Despite various attempts to confuse or rationalize the issue, the use of partial stamps was never authorized, for the obvious reason that such authorization would invite the reuse of postage and the consequent loss of revenue.

20th Century U.S. Bisects

Being thoroughly impressed by recent postings with the imprecation Study, Study, Study here is a question: what resources, including specific auction catalogs, should I want to study to understand postally legitimate 20th century U.S. bisects?  Are there documented examples of shortages of postage stamps where more than a single example of a bisect, say a 2 cent halved in July 1932 to make the 3 cent rate, from a single post office has been collected?  Has this topic been exhibited?

J30 EDU

Zac,

Did you find the August 10, 1894, cover that Siegel sold in the Whitpain sale, or did that beat yours?

Collecting bug

Now that I have been thinking back in time about collecting coins and stamps, there was the extreme thrill (endorphin rush) when I found a dime in my uncle's Miracle Whip coin jar that RS Yeoman (Red Book) said was worth $5.00.  Same with stamps.  Of couse that catalogue value was only a pipe dream perception on my part but it truly felt the same as if I were putting money in my old cash register bank.  I still have that bank and it deeply reminds me how I learned the value of a dollar and what effort it took to save that amount vs spending it for popsicles.  How many of you had such a bank?  I gave up many treats to save for the Lincoln penny 9S VDB :-)

Percieved "good buys" at much less than catalogue value also led me to make a few bad mistakes as mentioned.  However, the good decisions and thrills of discovery are the fuel for the life long fire that a little water will never extinguish.  The water at Pacifc 97 was mighty cold, however :-)

Ken Lawrence EDU

Thanks  for posting APS EDU cert Ken.
I found the EDU for J30 a few years ago, it's always exciting to see a new one or find one yourself.

The Collecting Gene

Cary

Great story! I always wanted that 1922 penny too.

I have no doubt that the collecting gene is lurking in the teenage American genome. My grand daughter has it - she collects tunes on her ipod and connections in her facebook account. 

But stamps? No way. She has probably never sent a snail-mail letter in her life, and perhaps never will. Everyone she wants to connect with she can reach with email, texting or voice via cellphone.

How the collecting fire gets started!

I will add my 2c (line rate) to the dicussion and fully believe that a family connection starts the ball rolling along.  That has two parts that I believe we mentioned some time back.  First the inheritance of the collecting gene and then the exposure to collecting things.

My mother gave me a lttle black coin purse when I was about 9 yrs old with Indian head pennies she had saved since she was a kid.  I was fascinated immediately.  She was a collector to have saved them and now I was hooked. Why? That's the big question but they were old with percieved value and now they were mine.  I wanted more and went through all the coins that came in change to my mom and dad, got the Whitman folders and started filling slots.  Unfortunately I had no mentors until much later so made many mistakes.

Not long into the process, my dad bought me a stamp album for my birthday.  Bingo, spots to fill and the search went everywhere including grandmas attic where I cut the stamps off postcards.  Yes, I did that and swear when I see the results today :-)  My dad worked near a small post office and must have mentioned that his son collected stamps and the clerk told him to bring me home a plate block of a new 3c issue.  Hit a home run, as I now wanted each new issue and not a big investment with only one stamp per month at 12c per plate block.  So now I was collecting coins and stamps.

One of the minor set backs was my initiation into approval service.  We have spoken of this before but I got hit hard since I sent for all the freebies but then could not stop the approvals from coming.  My mother finally wrote the big companies to stop and they finally did.  I still got alot of low cost or free stamps.  I started attending coin and stamp shows and saw what I wanted but could not afford.  I then started saving every quarter I earned to fill the holes in my penny collection: 9S VDB, 14D, 31S.  The joy to accomplish those goals one by one as a local dealer put them on lay-away so I could pay each week.  I hit a major snag when a dealer at a show sold me the Lincoln 22 no D for $100 borrowed from my dad (with much arm twisting) and paid back over many months.  Several years later I was told it was a fake. I had the Red Book but it was not enough to educate me.  It was, as Dr Phil might say, Life lesson #111.1: You can't trust every adult that wants to sell you something you really really want if the desire makes you blind. :-(

I stopped collecting when I went to college but my dad never let me completely stop.  He bought every proof set from the mint and every new issue stamp.  When I came home for visits, I looked at the accumulation and stored them away.  The pilot light was still burning but my fervor was on hold for the newness of independance and other diversions.  Oh those other diversions. :-)

What rekindled the flame, I really don't know but with my first full time job, I had new money beyond expenses and I started looking at my plate block collection and got a Scott Catalogue to see if they worth anything.  I also saw all the older issues I did not have and the flame roared to life.  I spent perhaps 10 years picking up plates and mint NH singles.  Water hit the flames when the post office got greedy (IMHO) with the big plate strips and many issues that I could hardly keep up with.  I also ran head on into a dealer through Linns that managed to sell me hundreds of dollars of regummed and reperfed stamps.  Yes, partially my fault but these were "beauties" indeed and priced about 25% below everybody else.  There was a reason, but I fell hard.  

The switch to postal history was one of those mystical happenings.  I was sitting at a dealer's table at a show and happened to be next to a fire cracker collector, Arnold Peterson.  He was excited about pulling a certain card out of the box he was looking through and couldn't help share his excitement with me.  He said he had been looking for this RPO postmark for 20 years and never thought he would find it.  He showed me the RPO cancel and explained the route and short term of operation.  I told him my dad worked for the Burlington RR and he said in return, "You should start collecting RPOs from the Burlington."  That was the spark and I have never looked back.  Of course, I have expanded to many other areas but I will always thank Arnold for sharing his enthusiasm with a stranger and starting me down a long and winding road with thrills of discovery of my own along the way.

So that's my story and I'm sure some elements overlap with many of you.  There were close people that started me and kept me going even when I was on hold.  And probably a big dose of genetics as well :-) 

First Bureau Issue Postage Due EDU

This just in:

Youth

John B,

Metrics? I well remember AMERIPEX, which boasted about the number of buses of young people who attended. The show had provided Dorothy Blaney with a budget, and she had worked with Chicago area schools to bring kids, deploying the money to pay for the buses. Being a skeptical reporter, I watched curbside as the buses arrived and dropped off the kids, mostly three to five youngsters per bus. I doubt the number of those kids who collect stamps today, 24 years later, equals a rounding error.

I had no adult to help me get started collecting stamps when I was a Boy Scout in 1953. I had to search for one willing to counsel me for the Stamp Collecting merit badge. I bought stamps by mail from approval dealers, from John Ross's store, and from Marshall Field's stamp department. I went to COMPEX when it was at the Palmer House, but never got to know the collectors. I did not join a stamp hobby organization until 1982.

I was sufficiently annoyed at shallow, credulous reports in the stamp papers that I offered to write investigative stories for Stamp Collector in 1983. Jim Magruder took me up on it, and at AMERIPEX Michael Laurence took me to lunch and offered me a much larger readership if I would switch to Linn's, which I did. So my personal contact with stamp hobby insiders went from zero before 1982 to the top of the heap by 1986. Linn's published my first stamp book in 1989. I was elected to the APS Board in 1991. At that time, USPS was still using flawed surveys from the 1950s to portray the sociology of young collectors, one of the many underlying reasons for the failure of the Ben Franklin Stamp Clubs and the successor Stampers Cool-ectibles programs.

Kids

AH

Alex,

I did not say or suggest we should not try to attract kids into the hobby. But I believe we all agree it is an uphill task. You are fighting modern trends. Even if you do get the kids interested, as with most of us, they will drop out to make a career and raise families - so if there are to be benefits it could be as long as 30 years from now before they are felt. By then what might be left?

I think my suggested alternative is not such a bad idea. Fresh blood is required to keep stamp mags in business, stamp clubs and the APS in business, dealers and auctioneers. We should not try to dictate where that new interest should come from  - whereas many collecting adults have rare opportunity to intereact with school kids we meet fellows of our own age consistanly. The growing number of older folk is a ready made market to tap into. Nick 

Youth in philately

Alex

I know you believe that other young people must be the impressors, and are working hard to encourage that. I have no data to suggest that your approach will not work. The problem is that no one has any data to demonstrate that any approach to today's youth will work. 

Does that mean it is not worth a shot? Of course not. You will no doubt remember that I was part of an unanimous vote of the USPCS Board of Directors to donate $5,000 from the Classics Society treasury to your Young Philatelic Leadershiop program. That was based on intuition. But at some point intuition has to give way to hard data which indicate positive results.

Sadly, programs aimed at youth (APS, Rangers), although well- meaning, have missed an opportunity to collect the kinds of information that could demonstrate their program's effectiveness over the long term. I spent many weeks trying to assemble simple metrics on these programs, and it was like pulling teeth. 

If collectors are to be expected to continue spending tens of thousands of dollars annually on youth programs, then those spending the money would be wise to keep and share some records:
   1. How many kids were engaged, when, where, in what manner, for how long, and by whom?
   2. What was the unit cost of  each engagement?
   3. How many of those engaged were already stamp collectors?
   4. How many said they might continue after the engagement?
   5. How many had continued to collect after a year? After two years?

It's not just about "how many kids we talk to, give stamps to", etc., but also the "so what" and the followup. A little business discipline applied to how these programs are run would be a great help in fundraising efforts, at least with respect to my personal financial involvement.

2 cent line rate

Harvey -
 I agree with you about those dull plate positions, but how could you suggest that the 2 cent line rate was not fascinating?

Triple Inverted Transfer

Harvey B.....................

How dare you!!!  EVERYONE has to experience the amazing triple inverted with transfer..............

Oh!  Sorry!!  Did you mean the stamp issued in 1852?  Last week, while trying to promote the hobby, I asked a young lady if she knew what the "triple inverted with transfer" was......... she slapped me and said I was too old and not flexible enough.

Back to the drawing board.................

The Impresssors Should Not Be Other Adults

John B. -- I believe in order to encourage young people to collect, other young people must be the "impressors."

Creating More Youth Stamp Collectors!!!

I posted some of this information in early February, but I figured it was worth posting again.

This past October, I presented a series of ideas at a meeting of the New York Collectors Club about how to engage and then successfully encourage more young people to become stamp and/or cover collectors.

I have spent a considerable amount of time since January 2008 testing different concepts to address the need to interest more young people in stamp and cover collecting. The NYCC presentation along with a companion article in this month's American Stamp Collector and Dealer Magazine report some of my observations and recommendations.

The speech is highlighted on the American Philatelic Society homepage --- www.stamps.org

The direct link to the audio of the speech is available here. 

Nick & Harvey:

I agree in part with Harvey that a more concerted effort must be made in reaching out to "Baby Boomers" but if we do not seriously attempt to interest young people now, then there will not be only a fraction of middle age adults in the future to try to attract back to the hobby. 

Nick, I do not believe you are right about not reaching out to young people. I believe that having a meaningful interaction with stamp collecting at a young age makes one much more likely to come back to the hobby as an adult than to try and attract an adult who never collected stamps as a kid. My NY Collectors Club presentation outlines these thoughts. 

I invite everyone to take a listen and post their thoughts here.